Concerns About Sony's Religious Intolerance

[msmith]

Originally Posted by Patricia

I am now deeply puzzled. I always understood that Christians didn't measure success by such worldly standards. Yet here they are described as the only meaningful ones.

Nothing about striving for holiness, excelling in works of charity, or promoting human dignity actually counts as a success then?

I was just making a general point that referring to a predominantly godless nation like France as being more intelligent than a predominantly Theist nation like the U.S. is utterly absurd based on practically every metric of "success".

Of course the USA is also the most generous country in the world, and gives more in charity than any other nation on earth. I very much appreciate you bringing that up. A great point.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by amgoforth

... I have had friends in the past when I was a Pro Wrestler who were gay....

Us atheist non-believers are duly impressed, but need I remind you of the views of the merciful Lord toward those who indulge in such open-mindedness - think Sodom and Gomorrah.

Originally Posted by amgoforth

If the scrawny little punks who wrote the articles in the links above, had been in Iraq with me, and saw the death and destruction, then the might have something to say on the subject.

Heh, I've had a few glasses of biodynamic wine, so my senses might be a little dull, but this is kind of like saying, "If the fat stupid bible-thumping rednecks, have seen what I've seen, and have learned what I've learned, then they might have something to say on the subject."

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by msmith

... Is that the point you are laughably trying to make? Everyone in America is dead weight except for the American Academy of Science members and atheists?:....

If you are really asking, then, YES.

America (as you refer to it,) would still be a great country, and at the forefront of of science and technology, without the trailer-bred, mini-mall bible thumpers.

We'll also have less welfare recipients, lower taxes and higher standard of living. And our kids will be smarter, our gene-pool will be leaner and healthier, the land will be more ecologically sound, and genetic research will be more advanced, to the benefit of the rest of us.

I am only half joking....

P.S. Oh, msmith, if you think I am out of line, I am merely paraphrasing your idol Vox Day, except that his similar pronouncements are directed at non-whites.

[mazzeltjes]

Originally Posted by Sonist

If you are really asking, then, YES.

America (as you refer to it,) would still be a great country, and at the forefront of of science and technology, without the trailer-bred, mini-mall bible thumpers.

We'll also have less welfare recipients, lower taxes and higher standard of living. And our kids will be smarter, our gene-pool will be leaner and healthier, the land will be more ecologically sound, and genetic research will be more advanced, to the benefit of the rest of us.

I am only half joking....

P.S. Oh, msmith, if you think I am out of line, I am merely paraphrasing your idol Vox Day, except that his similar pronouncements are directed at non-whites.

I'm glad somebody from the States said this

[tompe]

Originally Posted by mazzeltjes

I'm glad somebody from the States said this

But California is really not considered to belong to the US in this respect...

[tompe]

Originally Posted by msmith

Of course the USA is also the most generous country in the world, and gives more in charity than any other nation on earth. I very much appreciate you bringing that up. A great point.

And this is not true either if we look at per capita or as a percentage of GNP. See for example:

http://kriswager.blogspot.com/2007/0...aid-donor.html

As the figure shows, the position of USA is quite different when taking the relative economies into consideration (I’ve removed the donations from the international organizations from the figure). As a matter of fact, the US ranks 17th, just below Greece, and just above Germany. And this figure doesn’t take into consideration that the EU countries make considerable donations through the European Commission, which was ranked second in the total amount given.

When we look at net donations per capita, the US is ranked 14th, but again, this is without taking the EC donations into account.

[MidknytOwl]

Originally Posted by msmith

AGAIN, the U.S. trumps France (and every other country that you mentioned) in virtually every meaningful category of success, accomplishment, technological development, financial power and influence, which would naturally be a significant offshoot of intelligence. Are you actually attempting to argue that the French as a whole (or any other country that you mentioned) are "smarter" than Americans?

How does Finland or Sweden stack up against the United States with regards to their respective economies? Does your assertion that they are less religious contribute to the fact that they are objectively less successful and less developed nations than the United States? (with all due respect to their inhabitants)

I wanted to comment on you mentioning this the first time, but ran out of time before I had to go to work. Low and behold, you belabor the point again.

Do you ever wonder why so many people around the world think that we Americans are pig-headed, egotistical morons who think the world revolves around our country and that the rest of the world be damned? The era of Bush made it that much worst, but when people read things like that, do you really wonder why we're not well liked outside our own borders?

Open your eyes. Have you ever even been outside the country? What basis are you trying to use that says the US trumps France (or other countries) in anything? I note that while you state it as fact, twice, you don’t bother to offer any type of supporting links or anything to back up your point. Perhaps because there aren’t any?

I’m not an economist, nor am I going to pretend to be, but you say that the US is above in economy…then why is the US dollar below the Euro (of which France uses), the British Pound, and even the Japanese Yen? (Which Japan, as a side note, is 96% Buddhist). Isn’t the exchange rate typically used as an indicator for a country’s economy? By GDP we’re not in the top either, but being I don’t fully understand GDP (nor do I care to waste the effort reading up on it just to argue to the point), I’ll just leave it at that.

Sure, we’ve invented a lot of things, had a lot of technological advances, etc. Sure, we seem to have a bit more influence, but keep in mind how big of a country we are. We’re also the only country that’s ever dropped a nuclear weapon, and twice at that. Must be because we’re so smart and advanced, right?

I just can’t believe that you’re trying to argue that the US is better in every “meaningful” measure, as well as smarter, by just stating it as a fact. Truth is that you have nothing to back these claims and are just spouting off the typical America-must-be-the-best mindset because you’ve learned that you should be proud to be an ‘Merican –insert Bush accent here-.

You also are not doing well to argue the point that those that believe in god are not dumber than their non-believing counterparts. The following of your posts has been quite interesting, starting off with hey, Sony is evil and don’t you all agree, to hey, don’t attack the newbie who was just trying to politely point something out, to now spewing off biased viewpoints without backing. Your actions are proving alone the argument you are trying to disprove.

Before you go off on the fact that it says on the side that I’m in Korea, let me make a few things clear. I was born and raised in the US, by a mother who outside of a trip to Canada when she was a little kid has never left the country. I am a US citizen who chose, like many other fresh college grads, to go abroad for a year and teach English, which is why I’m here. When I’m done, I’ll go back to the US. So don’t bother with any arguments about me not being an American and so my points aren’t valid or worth listening to (as if that should matter anyway). And if you’re wondering why I steer away from saying America and American, it is because while it is a common phrase that we use, it’s also another example of our egotism. Keep in mind that the continent we’re on, as well as the one to the south, are Americas, and it can be offensive to all the other people on the two continents that we claim it all as our own. One of those things you pick up on if you look beyond our borders and all.

You said: “Are you actually attempting to argue that the French as a whole (or any other country that you mentioned) are "smarter" than Americans?”

Are you actually attempting to argue that Americans are smarter as a whole than any other country? Don’t you see how absurd that is, that you just assume we are the smartest and make it seem like someone is lacking in mental capacity to even suggest that such a thing isn’t true?

You’re one of the reasons why every Canadian I saw in Europe had a very prominent Canadian flag on their backpack, why a girl I met in Greece who moved to the US from England when she was little would use an English accent when asking the locals for directions and such, even though she didn’t have one in her normal speech. Take the incredulity you have at someone daring to suggest that the US isn’t the best, brightest, most fabulous country in every way and imagine how they feel with you saying the same thing about their countries. You don’t have anything to back it up, so stop claiming that it’s gospel (no pun intended).

Originally Posted by Patricia

I am now deeply puzzled. I always understood that Christians didn't measure success by such worldly standards. Yet here they are described as the only meaningful ones.

Nothing about striving for holiness, excelling in works of charity, or promoting human dignity actually counts as a success then?

Touché.

Originally Posted by msmith

I was just making a general point that referring to a predominantly godless nation like France as being more intelligent than a predominantly Theist nation like the U.S. is utterly absurd based on practically every metric of "success".

I like how you call them “godless” as opposed to atheists, non-believers, or a myriad of other options at your disposal. But then again, that’s how you see them, isn’t it?

[HarryT]

Ladies and gentlemen, let's keep things "civil", please! We've managed to discuss this somewhat controversial subject in a polite and calm manner thus far. Let's try to maintain that.

Thanks.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by Gideon

It depends on the type of Christian you're talking about. Personally, I think the things you mentioned last are the only things that do matter. Most the religious people I associate with believe that, too. No one in my church talks about the status of someone's immortal soul, but we talk a lot about the Missions (and missions in our church are not about converting people) in Africa that have built schools or feeding the hungry there or here. We talk a lot about social justice and the importance of equality and then go out and do what we can towards those goals. We talk a lot about Jesus... but we do not dwell on his death or 'resurrection.'

Personally, and I do mean that in the sense that I know very well, I don't know many Christians who actually believe in miracles or that Jesus was the literal son of God or was resurrected. They certainly don't believe in God as a big dad in the sky or Hell for those not saved (or anyone else, for that matter).

But the point is there is an entire strata of theology and religion that exists in this vein. It's not all hocus pocus and world-denying.

Which is not to say many, or even most, don't. But it's not as uncommon as some like to think.

Gideon, apparently you don't live in what's called "The Bible Belt" or you wouldn't be able to honestly say this unless you were a hermit and didn't know any of your neighbors.

[msmith]

Originally Posted by MidknytOwl

Open your eyes. Have you ever even been outside the country? What basis are you trying to use that says the US trumps France (or other countries) in anything? I note that while you state it as fact, twice, you don’t bother to offer any type of supporting links or anything to back up your point. Perhaps because there aren’t any?

I’m not an economist, nor am I going to pretend to be, but you say that the US is above in economy…then why is the US dollar below the Euro (of which France uses), the British Pound, and even the Japanese Yen? (Which Japan, as a side note, is 96% Buddhist). Isn’t the exchange rate typically used as an indicator for a country’s economy? By GDP we’re not in the top either, but being I don’t fully understand GDP (nor do I care to waste the effort reading up on it just to argue to the point), I’ll just leave it at that.

Here are the GDP stats. USA GDP is 552% larger than France, and is actually at the top by a wide margin.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP.pdf


Buddhism is a religion, not atheism or agnosticism.

The U.S. dollar is essentially the world's reserve currency, and it has actually strengthened dramatically in the current financial crisis. However ALL currencies fluctuate and do not determine the size of an economy. GDP is the metric that economists use to measure it.

The only point I was trying to make was that it was absurd and ignorant for a previous poster to infer that atheists are "smarter" that people of faith. They used France as an example of a country that is predominantly secular/atheist/agnostic, and my example was the United States where approximately 90% of the population believes in God. You certainly cannot argue that France is "smarter" or more successful than the USA based on many various metrics of accomplishment.

I was attempting to defend my point, not dismiss other nations accomplishments, or be an arrogant "American". And my apologies to all other members of Central, South and North America for my reference to the USA as "America" if they were offended. It is common practice here, but I certainly can see where it could be a bit offensive to our friends and neighbors to the north and south. Thanks for correcting me.

[zelda_pinwheel]

The US population is also about 5 times larger than France's, putting their per capita GDP nearly at the same level. Statistics are meaningless with no context.

[lilac_jive]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

The US population is also about 5 times larger than France's, putting their per capita GDP nearly at the same level. Statistics are meaningless with no context.

Not to mention France is way cooler.

[Valloric]

It seems this thread has devolved into "my country is better than yours".

Aside from keeping it civil, let's keep it rational as well.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by msmith

The U.S. dollar is essentially the world's reserve currency, and it has actually strengthened dramatically in the current financial crisis. However ALL currencies fluctuate and do not determine the size of an economy. GDP is the metric that economists use to measure it.

It has gone up from a very low value. It is still pretty low compared to what it used to be from my point of view.

Also as I have read the evidence it is the case that for example the higher eduction the less religiosity. For example

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/intelligence.html

claim that in the general population in US belief in god is 90% but for scientists with B.S it is 40% and for eminent scientists it is 10%..

[Gideon]

Oh I do (live here in the buckle of the bible belt)... but I don't really associate with people who tend to believe those things. Not purposely, we just don't travel in the same orbits or they are not talkative about their beliefs in those areas. I have a cousin who is a Southern Baptist minister and we have certain regular disagreements but I don't know him very well. So I know of them, but what I meant is the people I know well don't believe those things. The people I grew up around certainly did and the people I'm casually around certainly do. You should hear some of the things that get said in our classes.

Also, I'm an Episcopalian. So... you know.. there's that. Which is not to say there are not some very "conservative" Episcopalians, but generally it's a pretty big tent and there are lots of beliefs about these things. But generally the Anglican tradition takes reason pretty seriously. Even this great "schism" that was in the news so much lately over ordaining a homosexual bishop and having a woman as our presiding bishop was like... 2% of the church. Personally, I'm happy to have them gone. The church will go forward better without people like that. It can be dressed up better for ecumenical purposes but as far as I'm concerned a bigot is a bigot.

But even so.. I don't think what people believe matters terribly much. I'm only concerned with how people act. They can believe in Zeus for all I care.

and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?