Kindle and DRM

abradaxis · 04-23-2011, 01:24 PM

This was also posted in the new user forum.

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but my friend and I have a dispute going on, and I wonder whether anyone can help us resolve it. It involves DRM. Yes, my friend and I both know that it may be illegal, but we question how far publishers and ebook distributors are willing to follow up on DRM violations. Has anyone ever been prosecuted for Drm violations? And speaking of privacy rights, if you strip a book of it's DRM and then load it onto, say your Kindle, does Amazon have the right to "look into your Kindle" to investigate whether the book that resides in your Library has been stripped of its DRM? If you use Calibre and it delivers your book (which has been stripped of its DRM) to Whispernet, does your Amazon or Kindle licenses or any other actions you have taken to buy and operate your Kindle allow anyone to "snoop" inside your kindle or your Whispernet actions to determine issues regarding DRM status? I say that somewhere during your procurement or use of your Kindle you have given up your rights, and that Amazon or its representatives have been granted rights by you to examine your Kindle or transmissions to it to determine whether copyright protection has been removed. My friend says that this is a clear invasion of privacy, and opens Amazon to huge legal liability. Any comments on who is right? Thanks in advance for anyone who cares to comment on this issue.

Piper_ · 04-23-2011, 01:57 PM

To my knowledge, no one has ever been charged or sued for removing DRM from a book.

I don't expect anyone will be charged with that alone, because any perceived law against removing DRM for personal use is so likely to be knocked down in court. (the 5th circuit already says it wasn't the intent of the DCMA)

Amazon can see what's on your Kindle. Amazon is not the one who cares that you have DRM, though. Amazon says they are DRM-agnostic, and they have it disabled by default for those publishing through them.
Jeff Bezos says he does not think removing DRM hurts sales, and he says he expects publishers just need to get comfortable with the idea of doing without it. (videos and reports are googleable)

The only thing I would worry about is the possibility that a publisher could, on a wild-eyed DRM warpath, subpoena Amazon to give them the data they have on their titles that kindlers have de-DRMd. There does appear to be a "secured" flag on that tells whether DRM is still there or not, so...

But then we're back to whether or not a publisher even wants to push it. I don't think they want it in the courts, and I think Amazon would fight the subpoena, because they aren't as stupid as publishers are about PR.

But publishers could conceivably go crazy and decide to start sending out those strong-arming "give us $ or we'll sue you" letters like the music industry did.

abradaxis · 04-23-2011, 02:00 PM

Thank you for your prompt and thorough reply. I really appreciate the information, and the insight.

DiapDealer · 04-23-2011, 02:02 PM

What Amazon has the ability to do, What they have the right to do, and what they actually do do, are three different discussion topics. While they may have the ability to check if your ebooks have had the DRM removed, it's not in their best interest to do so. They're not the DRM police. They sell ereaders and ebooks. The minute they sell someone down the river for removing DRM, is the minute they pack up shop and call it quits... because their business is done for at that point. They don't want that, they want to sell you books.

Can they see if you have books that have had DRM removed? Probably.

Do they have the right to check? Probably, depending on how you interpret the TOS.

Will they check to see if you're removing DRM? No. Because they're not the ones requiring DRM in the first place.

sirmaru · 04-23-2011, 02:35 PM

Amazon has a NEW CONTRACT coming down with Version 1.5 for K4PC which may apply to songs and books. Be very careful if you remove DRM or misuse songs and books. The contract is only installed if you try to use their new Cloud usage softare for MP3 songs.

New rules may now apply and could well end in civil suits or even prosecutions in the future.

I stick to only legal use of books and songs so it won't apply to me. I NEVER remove DRM from any products.

If you do flaky things with those products, it may pay to stay with K4PC 1.4.

kindlekitten · 04-23-2011, 02:39 PM

and your mileage may vary depending on your country and level of paranoia ;o)

avantman42 · 04-23-2011, 02:47 PM

I'd just like to make the point that the law varies according to jurisdiction. In particular:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piper_

I don't expect anyone will be charged with that alone, because any perceived law against removing DRM for personal use is so likely to be knocked down in court. (the 5th circuit already says it wasn't the intent of the DCMA)

Here in the UK, we don't have the DMCA, but according to the UK Intellectual Property Office, removing DRM without permission is illegal in the UK:

Quote:

Technical protection measures that are designed to prevent unauthorised, restricted acts in respect of copyright protected works, are perfectly legitimate tools used by copyright owners to restrict certain uses of their work.

Workarounds, or circumvention, of such protection measures is illegal and may result in the right holder taking civil and/or criminal action against the person carrying out such an act.

Also in the UK, it isn't legal to make personal copies of copyrighted works (although there is apparently an exception for computer programs - it is legal to make "a necessary back up copy of a computer program where you are a lawful user"), but it is legal in the US. The Gowers review a few years ago recommended that such a right be introduced, but it wasn't acted upon.

mr ploppy · 04-23-2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piper_

But then we're back to whether or not a publisher even wants to push it. I don't think they want it in the courts, and I think Amazon would fight the subpoena, because they aren't as stupid as publishers are about PR.

But publishers could conceivably go crazy and decide to start sending out those strong-arming "give us $ or we'll sue you" letters like the music industry did.

Never underestimate what a dying industry will do to survive.

http://torrentfreak.com/illegal-down...-sales-091009/

mr ploppy · 04-23-2011, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Can they see if you have books that have had DRM removed? Probably.

Do they have the right to check? Probably, depending on how you interpret the TOS.

DRM status (or lack of) is one of the things your Kindle uploads to Amazon every time you open a book (or when you next go online). To build that into the firmware they must have had some planned use for it.

DiapDealer · 04-23-2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

DRM status (or lack of) is one of the things your Kindle uploads to Amazon every time you open a book (or when you next go online).

Please point me to the evidence for this. I'm interested in exactly where/when the DRM status is being logged to a file on the Kindle; and I'm interested in the exact function/script/program that clearly shows Amazon servers being contacted and the DRM status of books actually being transferred to said server.

Thanks in advance.

mr ploppy · 04-23-2011, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Please point me to the evidence for this. I'm interested in exactly where/when the DRM status is being logged to a file on the Kindle; and I'm interested in the exact function/script/program that clearly shows Amazon servers being contacted and the DRM status of books actually being transferred to said server.

Thanks in advance.

It's here, in the first quote box (you might need to scroll right to find it):
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51371

"isEncrypted=false" (or presumably true) is the one that notes DRM status.

Where it gets sent to is detailed a few posts down from that one.

DMB · 04-23-2011, 04:11 PM

Despite the legality or otherwise of stripping DRM, I can't see people getting dragged as far as the courts if they buy a book in one format and strip the DRM simply to read it in another format. If they're not making multiple copies I can't see it would be worth anyone's while to go after them.

DiapDealer · 04-23-2011, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Where it gets sent to is detailed a few posts down from that one.

Ah, I'd almost forgotten about the Big Brother thread. Thanks for reminding me. Unfortunately, there's nothing in that thread that absolutely confirms that everything that gets written to the syslog eventually finds its way to an Amazon server. That "evidence" only proves two things:

1) That many, many things are logged to the syslog locally on the Kindle... many.
2) That the Kindle periodically communicates with an Amazon server to see if there are things it needs "to do." To my knowledge, no one has captured one of these "todo" requests and analyzed it.

Where was the part that confirms that the entire syslog is sent to Amazon on a regular basis?

Shouldn't be too hard for someone with a WiFi Kindle to setup a packet sniffer and catch it in the act. That's the kind of evidence I'm looking for. Surely, someone somewhere has done this already?

abookreader · 04-23-2011, 05:12 PM

A couple of people worked on that in this thread
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=122704

I think their general consensus was that a log file is being generated but they couldn't find where it was ever actually going to Amazon. It was agreed that the file was too big to imagine that Amazon was actually collecting these from every single Kindle user on a regular basis.

But if you're concerned about it Yifanlu came up with a modification that inserts a faked ip address in place of Amazon in that line of code.

DiapDealer · 04-23-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abookreader

I think their general consensus was that a log file is being generated but they couldn't find where it was ever actually going to Amazon.

That's what all the various investigations have led me to believe as well. But I'll certainly entertain evidence that proves otherwise.

Quote:

But if you're concerned about it Yifanlu came up with a modification that inserts a faked ip address in place of Amazon in that line of code.

I'm not concerned about it in the least.

I'm more concerned with disinformation.

04-23-2011, 01:24 PM	#1
abradaxis Enthusiast Posts: 29 Karma: 10 Join Date: Apr 2011 Device: amazon	Kindle and DRM This was also posted in the new user forum. Hi, I'm new to this forum, but my friend and I have a dispute going on, and I wonder whether anyone can help us resolve it. It involves DRM. Yes, my friend and I both know that it may be illegal, but we question how far publishers and ebook distributors are willing to follow up on DRM violations. Has anyone ever been prosecuted for Drm violations? And speaking of privacy rights, if you strip a book of it's DRM and then load it onto, say your Kindle, does Amazon have the right to "look into your Kindle" to investigate whether the book that resides in your Library has been stripped of its DRM? If you use Calibre and it delivers your book (which has been stripped of its DRM) to Whispernet, does your Amazon or Kindle licenses or any other actions you have taken to buy and operate your Kindle allow anyone to "snoop" inside your kindle or your Whispernet actions to determine issues regarding DRM status? I say that somewhere during your procurement or use of your Kindle you have given up your rights, and that Amazon or its representatives have been granted rights by you to examine your Kindle or transmissions to it to determine whether copyright protection has been removed. My friend says that this is a clear invasion of privacy, and opens Amazon to huge legal liability. Any comments on who is right? Thanks in advance for anyone who cares to comment on this issue.

04-23-2011, 01:57 PM	#2
Piper_ ~~~~~ Posts: 761 Karma: 1278391 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: USA Device: Kindle 3, Sony 350	To my knowledge, no one has ever been charged or sued for removing DRM from a book. I don't expect anyone will be charged with that alone, because any perceived law against removing DRM for personal use is so likely to be knocked down in court. (the 5th circuit already says it wasn't the intent of the DCMA) Amazon can see what's on your Kindle. Amazon is not the one who cares that you have DRM, though. Amazon says they are DRM-agnostic, and they have it disabled by default for those publishing through them. Jeff Bezos says he does not think removing DRM hurts sales, and he says he expects publishers just need to get comfortable with the idea of doing without it. (videos and reports are googleable) The only thing I would worry about is the possibility that a publisher could, on a wild-eyed DRM warpath, subpoena Amazon to give them the data they have on their titles that kindlers have de-DRMd. There does appear to be a "secured" flag on that tells whether DRM is still there or not, so... But then we're back to whether or not a publisher even wants to push it. I don't think they want it in the courts, and I think Amazon would fight the subpoena, because they aren't as stupid as publishers are about PR. But publishers could conceivably go crazy and decide to start sending out those strong-arming "give us $ or we'll sue you" letters like the music industry did. Last edited by Piper_; 04-23-2011 at 02:07 PM. Reason: clarity

04-23-2011, 02:35 PM	#5
sirmaru Wizard Posts: 2,426 Karma: 6561538 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: Kindle PW 2013, HDX 2013, Galaxy S5 2014	Amazon has a NEW CONTRACT coming down with Version 1.5 for K4PC which may apply to songs and books. Be very careful if you remove DRM or misuse songs and books. The contract is only installed if you try to use their new Cloud usage softare for MP3 songs. New rules may now apply and could well end in civil suits or even prosecutions in the future. I stick to only legal use of books and songs so it won't apply to me. I NEVER remove DRM from any products. If you do flaky things with those products, it may pay to stay with K4PC 1.4. Last edited by sirmaru; 04-23-2011 at 02:38 PM.

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04-23-2011, 02:00 PM	#3
abradaxis Enthusiast Posts: 29 Karma: 10 Join Date: Apr 2011 Device: amazon	Thank you for your prompt and thorough reply. I really appreciate the information, and the insight.

04-23-2011, 02:02 PM	#4
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,572 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	What Amazon has the ability to do, What they have the right to do, and what they actually do do, are three different discussion topics. While they may have the ability to check if your ebooks have had the DRM removed, it's not in their best interest to do so. They're not the DRM police. They sell ereaders and ebooks. The minute they sell someone down the river for removing DRM, is the minute they pack up shop and call it quits... because their business is done for at that point. They don't want that, they want to sell you books. Can they see if you have books that have had DRM removed? Probably. Do they have the right to check? Probably, depending on how you interpret the TOS. Will they check to see if you're removing DRM? No. Because they're not the ones requiring DRM in the first place.

04-23-2011, 02:39 PM	#6
kindlekitten Professional Adventuress Posts: 13,368 Karma: 50260224 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Olympic Peninsula on the OTHER Washington! (the big green clean one on the west coast!) Device: Kindle, the original! Times Two! and gifting an International Kindle	and your mileage may vary depending on your country and level of paranoia ;o)

04-23-2011, 04:11 PM	#12
DMB Old Git Posts: 958 Karma: 1840790 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Switzerland (mostly) Device: Two kindle PWs wifi, kindle fire, iPad3 wifi	Despite the legality or otherwise of stripping DRM, I can't see people getting dragged as far as the courts if they buy a book in one format and strip the DRM simply to read it in another format. If they're not making multiple copies I can't see it would be worth anyone's while to go after them.

04-23-2011, 05:12 PM	#14
abookreader Wizard Posts: 1,516 Karma: 2567610 Join Date: Oct 2009 Device: Kindles - Keyboard, Fire, 2-US, iPhone, iPAD	A couple of people worked on that in this thread https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=122704 I think their general consensus was that a log file is being generated but they couldn't find where it was ever actually going to Amazon. It was agreed that the file was too big to imagine that Amazon was actually collecting these from every single Kindle user on a regular basis. But if you're concerned about it Yifanlu came up with a modification that inserts a faked ip address in place of Amazon in that line of code.

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