Why are DRM ebooks evil and why should I avoid them like the plague?

[sej7278]

as someone who has so many devices on which to read/listen/watch media on, if something is drm-infested, it doesn't get bought, simples!

i'm not expecting everything to be free, but i do expect to be able to use my purchases as i wish on whatever device i wish; especially when it clearly says "buy" not "rent" on amazon/itunes etc.

as digital consumers we seem to get constantly screwed over - can you imagine people in bookshops being told only they were allowed to read the books they buy, and only in the living room, not on the train?

[JSWolf]

If I buy a pBook and after I have read it, I decide a friend would like it and lend it. That is all legal and above board.

If I buy an eBook and after I have read it, I decide a friend would like it, the DRM would stop me from lending/giving it to said friend.

If I take said eBook and strip the DRM, I can give it to said friend to read.

But the problem comes in when said friend then turns around and gives it to someone else who may then tun around and post it on the net. This is what publishers do not want. Once you let an eBook go, you may not have control of it. If the friend is trustworthy and promises not to give it out, that's fine and no harm, no foul. But if you give the eBook to someone who lies and will let it go, that's the issue the publishers are using DRM for.

A pBook has to go from one person at a time. This pBook can only be read by one person at a time. And if it gets to a person who then has nobody to pass it onto, the lending stops. An eBook that gets out on the net can be read by many people at the same time. It can be downloaded by many people at the same time. Those people who downloaded it won't be paying for it. The question is though, would these people have bought it if they could not get it for free? Will they read it or are they just collectors?

I have seen torrents out there that have many eBooks in them and just because a given eBook is part of the collection doesn't mean it will be read by the downloader. So not all downloaded eBooks are a lost sale. But a lot are.

DRM is meant to try and prevent free sharing of eBooks. It's meant to restrict reading of eBooks to up to 6 devices/computer depending on the DRM.

The problem with DRM is that the people who actively send eBooks around the net know where to get them DRM free or how to strip the DRM. So DRM is not a hinder to them. DRM is a hinder to people who try to do what's right.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If I buy a pBook and after I have read it, I decide a friend would like it and lend it. That is all legal and above board.

If I buy an eBook and after I have read it, I decide a friend would like it, the DRM would stop me from lending/giving it to said friend.

No. Copyright law would do that.

If you lend a paper book to your friend, there is only one book, and it's being transferred from you to your friend. That's absolutely fine.

If you give them a copy of an eBook, there are now two copies where previously there was only one. You have broken copyright law, unless you have the permission of the copyright holder to make the additional copy.

The two scenarios are completely different.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No. Copyright law would do that.

If you lend a paper book to your friend, there is only one book, and it's being transferred from you to your friend. That's absolutely fine.

If you give them a copy of an eBook, there are now two copies where previously there was only one. You have broken copyright law, unless you have the permission of the copyright holder to make the additional copy.

The two scenarios are completely different.

My mother-in-law lent a reader to a friend. I still had a copy of that eBook that the friend was going to read. Is that a problem or is that OK?

I do see your point about there being multiple copies of the eBook out there. But, I've already finished reading it. That's why I'm sending it to a friend to read because I think this friend might enjoy it. So while I do have a copy and the friend has a copy, they will not be used at the same time. So while technically it is wrong, morally, it is not.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No. Copyright law would do that.

If you lend a paper book to your friend, there is only one book, and it's being transferred from you to your friend. That's absolutely fine.

If you give them a copy of an eBook, there are now two copies where previously there was only one. You have broken copyright law, unless you have the permission of the copyright holder to make the additional copy.

The two scenarios are completely different.

Yeap. On the other hand, i gave no book to my sister. Mainly because our taste in books are different enough.

I do not think DRM is evil. To me it's just an annoying inconvenience that the major sellers of e-books have chosen to put in place to address what they at least perceive as a problem. That is the loss of sales due to sharing of multiple copies of a single purchase.

Personally when I purchase an e-book I do not buy into the idea that I am really only purchasing a limited license to view the book for a temporary period on one specific device. Therefore I always remove the DRM so that the file will always be available to me to view on my current reader, and also on any other device I might purchase in the future from any manufacturer.

The idea that sharing a digital file is different than sharing the single copy of a paper book is valid. The proper analogy would be actually lending someone ones e-book reader with the e-book on it, and with the assurance that they will not copy the file from the reader.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. It's certainly not the case that "everybody" thinks that DRM is "evil".

That's true. There are industry shills and astroturfers trying to convince us that restrictions on us are for our own good Maybe that mindset works for you. It doesn't work for me.

Digital Restrictions Management keep me from using an ebook in the same ways I can use a pbook. With DRM, I can't lend an ebook to my mother (stealing! that's stealing!). I can't sell it to the used book store when I'm done with it (OMG the author isn't getting paid twice!). I can't keep it forever unless I somehow keep my device functioning forever (I have hundred-year-old pbooks). I can't give it away to the church rummage sale (or anything else). I can't, in fact, do anything except read it in certain ways as specified by the publisher. If something should happen to that publisher -- they go under, they switch DRM formats, they say they can't sell that book anymore, they decide they don't want to do business with me anymore (and all of these things have happened) -- at the very least, I can never read that book on anything but the years-outdated device I had at the time, whatever it might be, and quite possibly (Amazon has done this) they could just take the book away entirely, right out of my house and off my shelf.

Authors survived and produced books, prolifically in fact, for centuries without publishers being able to prohibit lending, prohibit resale, and compel repeated purchases of the same content. But with ebooks, the publishers see a chance to go to the "one book, one reader" model, and really want the "one book, one reader, one time" model -- they want you to rent books like you rent movies.

Would you buy a DVD that you could only watch on the TV you own now? If you get a new TV, you'd have to buy all your DVDs, at least the ones you want to watch, over again. Would that work for you? That's what DRM is.

That's why I don't buy DRM-locked ebooks, no matter how badly I want them. If I want a book that bad and I can't buy it electronically in a usable format, I'll just do what I've been doing all my life and buy the paper one. Sure, I'm short on space, but that's nothing new; I have a lot of practice in dealing with that, or at least moving stacks of books out of the way.

If you've ever wondered about my .sig and what the connection is between DRM and DDT, it's simple: ever see an ad for a "pest management" company? Did you expect that they would teach your cockroaches to dance the cha-cha or teach your fire ants to march in formation? Hell no; you expect them to eradicate the bugs, or come as close as humanly possible. DDT (referred to because it's commonly known by a TLA) exterminates things, not "controls" them, or at least that's the idea. DRM is "rights management" that works just like "pest management": it exterminates your rights. With pbooks, you have the right to lend them to anyone you want; with DRM ebooks, you don't. With pbooks, you have the right to keep them and use them forever; with DRM ebooks, you don't. With pbooks, you have the right to give them away or sell them when you're done; with DRM ebooks, you don't. And they want to charge you more for this. DRM manages rights like DDT manages pests: fatally.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

My mother-in-law lent a reader to a friend. I still had a copy of that eBook that the friend was going to read. Is that a problem or is that OK?

I do see your point about there being multiple copies of the eBook out there. But, I've already finished reading it. That's why I'm sending it to a friend to read because I think this friend might enjoy it. So while I do have a copy and the friend has a copy, they will not be used at the same time. So while technically it is wrong, morally, it is not.

I recently bought a book, DRM'ed epub. Not for myself, but for my mother. I didn't want to explain how she would have to register her stuff, download the link, put it on her Sony, etc.

So, I bought it. I then removed the DRM, and let my mother download the book from my own server. She could then load it into Calibre and from there to her Sony. I also have a copy in my Calibre library, mostly for backup purposes. I'll never read the book as 10 minutes later I ordered the same book, but in English (which I then removed the DRM from, because otherwise I couldn't read it on my Sony as it was a kindle book). And I'll read that book.

I feel absolutely no moral dilemma there.

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

That's true. There are industry shills and astroturfers trying to convince us that restrictions on us are for our own good Maybe that mindset works for you. It doesn't work for me.

There's a huge gap between thinking it's evil and thinking it's heaven sent.

I don't think it's evil. But I don't like it neither. So, I remove it. I don't make a fuss over it, if the publisher is happy with that so-called security, let him be. I'm not troubled by it.

[jbcohen]

Personally I see DRM as a minor inconvenience that I can avoid easily. My smart phone can read books from Amazon, Barns and Nobles and Borders. I can deal with Amazons' proprietary format and Barns and Noble's DRM by shifting readers on the smart phone, not really any big deal. I know I can strip the DRM from the books if I want to and how to acomplish that if I need to, have not had the need as yet. I'm perfectly happy filiping between readers as needed, don't need to carry anything additional simply need to hit the escape key a few times and the enter key a few times, not a real big deal.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you give them a copy of an eBook, there are now two copies where previously there was only one. You have broken copyright law, unless you have the permission of the copyright holder to make the additional copy.

So...if i MOVE the ebook to a thumb drive/sd card etc (so the ebook no longer exists on my computer) and then the ebook is MOVED (not copied) to another person's computer - how is that different to giving away an old/used paperback?



Just kidding... kind of.

Coops

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by buxton-arts

... reading thru clearly the majority of posters are readers rather than authors (I'm both, search john fitton on Kindle Store - niche area of publication of maps n calendars n stuff) ... I understand the issues of 'I've bought it so why cant I (and all my family and friends and people using upload sites) read it on anything' ... but maybe you should see it as 'I've bought it (usually alot cheaper than the paper option) to read it on my Kindle'

Please explain to me how $10 or $15 is a lot cheaper than $8, or $4.80 with a coupon? I'm sorry, but I just don't get this "new math".

No, you don't understand the issue if you think the question is one of why a reader can't give a book to "people using upload sites" instead of one of just being able to freaking use the book they just bought.

The extreme view is 'why isnt everything $0.0 cost'

And you really don't understand the issue if you think that's what people are talking about.

As an author ... why should I spend hours and hours ... to then give all that toil away free?

You're already giving that away for free. That's not the question. I'll say it again: You are already giving all that toil away free. Once again, I'll trot out my Harry Potter example: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows has never existed as an official ebook. Never. The author likes paper books. However, it was available as an illicit ebook before the paper version hit the stores.

DRM does not stop the "bad guys" from putting your ebook on any download site they want, giving it away through any torrent they want, or anything else. It not only doesn't stop them, it doesn't slow them down.

Does it stop Joe Blow from giving his mother a book he read and enjoyed? Maybe. If Joe doesn't care enough to learn to use a de-DRM script, anyway. Are you going to make more money when Joe's mother doesn't know about anything you wrote because she didn't read that book Joe was finished with? Doubtful. Sarah Graves made the royalties on 10 pbooks because I bought one of the series off a charity book table, though. Are you going to make more money when Joe buys a Nook instead of a Kindle and has to pay for your book again if he wants to keep reading it? Doubtful. He's highly unlikely to pay you twice for the same book. Are you going to make more money because Joe doesn't buy the book at all because he doesn't want a book he can only rent, not buy? Again, doubtful. More likely he just won't buy it at all. Hurting the "good guys" isn't helping you at all.

Many authors of course do publich freebies ... but also have to make a living by charging for some of their output.

Point to one post on MobileRead where someone says authors should not charge for books. Please.

Whilst DRM can be a pain it does decrease the dissemination of 'hacked' publications and free circulation which decreases an authors income - and hence willingness to write and publish.

No. It doesn't. See above regarding Harry Potter.

DRM doesn't hurt the bad guys.

DRM does hurt the good guys.

That's exactly the opposite of what an author wants. You want to be nice to your customers so they keep on giving you money, turn the non-customers into customers if possible so they start giving you money, and the people who will never be your customers can go hang. With DRM, you're screwing over your customers in an attempt at inconveniencing the people who will never be your customers, while discouraging your potential customers. That's backwards.

If you want free books read Charles Dickens and no contemporary books - your choice. Or just buy from Smashwords not Amazon.

I buy from DRM-free publishers. Smashwords is one, yes. So is Baen. So is O'Reilly (I use a lot of tech books). Etc. Is this making you more money?

As I say - perhaps you should see the cheap ebook purchase as a purchase to read on your kindle?

By "cheap" you mean "more expensive than a paperback" and by "purchase" you mean "rental", right? I'm just trying to get the terms straight here.

By the way, I searched the Kindle store for "john fitton" and didn't get any hits. I even cut and pasted it to be doubly sure.

[rogerVA]

Thanks for all the replies and any further replies to come. 95% of what I've downloaded, more probably, was either free or less than a couple bucks. I'm presently without money to spend on books, beyond a few bucks here and there, so I mainly read older public domain stuff, which is what I generally read anyway, or free or cheap editions of newer works. I can see where DRM would be an issue if I actually spent more money on eBooks, which I hope to do someday when my finances are, uh, brighter.

How will DRM books be noted as such on sites like Amazon? And how do I tell if books on my Kindle 3 are DRM? And is there a guide here for stripping the DRM from your books?

All this makes much better sense to me now. And I WOULD hate to spend $9.99 for a book and then find out it's pretty much a rental, as a previous poster noted. I appreciate the info.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by rogerVA

I should know this by now. DRM is an evil thing, I gather from everybody here. I'm not even sure which if any ebooks I have on my Kindle 3 are DRM and I'm not sure what the difference would be. Could somebody give me a quick rundown? (If this is too much to answer, I understand that, too.)

One thing to remember, your reader will be in a landfill in less than 5 years, the same as all current PMP players.

Lithium Ion battery will fail within 5 years, and since the Kindles (and most other E-book readers, and all current PMP players), have non-replaceable lithium Ion batteries, all will be junk within 5 years. (although you may be able to use them from a wall plug charger.)

Plan accordingly.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by buxton-arts

I understand the issues ...

I'm not so sure, let's ee.

of 'I've bought it so why cant I (and all my family and friends and people using upload sites) read it on anything

Heck, I can do that. It's just that I want to play this above board, as it were. I want authors to get paid. I want them to create more books. I depend on them, for what it's worth. You know, just like this somewhat drastic logo:

It's just that DRM isn't helping anybody. It doesn't hinder copyright violators, and it harms (ok, inconveniences) the honest folk. An all-around losing proposition in my book.

' ... but maybe you should see it as 'I've bought it (usually alot cheaper than the paper option) to read it on my Kindle'

Yeah, that's the "rental" model rearing its ugly head. Sorry, no; ebooks are still way too expensive for that.

As an author ... why should I spend hours and hours ... to then give all that toil away free?

Do you really hear anybody asking for that? Because I for one certainly don't.

Whilst DRM can be a pain it does decrease the dissemination of 'hacked' publications

I don't see that happening, no. The biggest threat budding authors are facing is obscurity, not violation of their copyright.

As I say - perhaps you should see the cheap ebook purchase as a purchase to read on your kindle?

Perhaps I don't? Scratch that, I don't. (Also, where can I find those "cheap ebook purchases"? Haven't encountered many of them in the wild, apart from a few self-published authors. But they usually come without DRM anyway.)

Amazon 'lend' books

Please tell me you're joking.

[queentess]

I agree with everything Worldwalker said.

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

By the way, I searched the Kindle store for "john fitton" and didn't get any hits. I even cut and pasted it to be doubly sure.

http://www.amazon.com/John-Fitton/e/..._athr_dp_pel_1