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Old 10-10-2007, 12:10 PM   #166
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I can see that this could work for musicians, but what about book authors - or software authors, come to that. If their products are downloadable free of charge, how do they make a living?
Since I'm not an author, I can't speak to that. But I am a computer professional.

The software that I create by myself, I usually give away. It's something that I did for fun anyway and if I give it away, I don't have to support it. I make my money by offering my services to companies to do computer work for them.

Today, the money isn't in the software - it's in the services surrounding the software. That's especially true with open source software out there.
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Old 10-10-2007, 12:12 PM   #167
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No... for lack of compensation, most of those people will simply get other jobs (yes, including the good ones), and the world will be out a lot of music, literature, art, movies, textbooks, software and many other things. They won't all produce for free, just for the hell of it, as many people would obviously prefer.

Somehow, I don't think this is a workable way to go.
They said the similar things when the printing press was invented.
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Old 10-10-2007, 12:18 PM   #168
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Here's a half-baked one, though. How about a combination membership and subscription type model. The membership/subscription would be really cheap or even free.
I had an idea some time ago about such a system.

1. All books were free (in electronic form).
2. You couldn't share books, but since anyone could get any book they wanted at any time, there was no problem with this.
3. There was no central source of eBooks. Many sources served them.
4. Every time a person downloaded a book, it would be recorded.
5. A culture tax would be imposed on everyone.
6. The money from the culture tax would be distributed to the authors who wrote the books depending on the number of people/downloads (if 1 person downloaded the same book 100 times, that would only count as 1).

So authors would be rewarded based on how many people used their works and everyone gets to read whatever they want "for free".
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Old 10-10-2007, 01:19 PM   #169
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5. A culture tax would be imposed on everyone.
Yo, that's just another way of paying for content... however, it is not as equitable as paying directly for what you download (if I pay the same tax as you, but you download thrice the number of books as I, then I'm subsidizing you).

Got another?
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Old 10-10-2007, 01:23 PM   #170
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Haven't people in the past tried music download systems whereby you could download whatever you wanted as long as you were a member, but it all stopped working as soon as your membership lapsed? That sounds a little like what you're describing (apologies if I've misunderstood you). I don't think they've been too popular with consumers - people want to "own" stuff (whatever "own" might mean with something like music).
You're close, I'm not talking about the content being free to all members, just having to be a member (of some outlet) to buy the content -- that would provide a way to indelibly link a given file to a given person (assuming that's possible), and cut them off when they went out of bounds. That way content could be priced reasonably but there's be repercussions for distribution.

Of course the obvious problem on that would be if enough people decided to distribute anyway then the content would be in the wild and couldn't be un-distributed. I think I'm looking for a way to expand the basic idea that Baen follows, but put some consequences in it for 'sharing.' I'm not in love with the idea in any case, just kicking it around.

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I had an idea some time ago about such a system.

1. All books were free (in electronic form).
2. You couldn't share books, but since anyone could get any book they wanted at any time, there was no problem with this.
3. There was no central source of eBooks. Many sources served them.
4. Every time a person downloaded a book, it would be recorded.
5. A culture tax would be imposed on everyone.
6. The money from the culture tax would be distributed to the authors who wrote the books depending on the number of people/downloads (if 1 person downloaded the same book 100 times, that would only count as 1).

So authors would be rewarded based on how many people used their works and everyone gets to read whatever they want "for free".
I see some merit in this idea, except for a couple of things that concern me.

The biggest one is that I don't want government(s) involved in the trafficking of things such as books, even second hand. Setting aside the bloat and waste that would come along with it, it will be too tempting to someone sometime to attempt to exert control over what's distributed, and that's a bad thing.

The second is that if it's a governmental agency, it's too hard to go beyond a given nation's borders, which would effectively mean that the population of whatever country or countries did this would support those that didn't. If it was a majority of support versus a minority of free-riders, that'd probably still work well enough, but if not, it would fall apart completely.

If we could figure out a way to make it some sort of internationally accepted agency then we might be getting somewhere But then we'd have the risks of having an agency that can levy taxes that doesn't answer in any way shape or form to the taxees -- what if it decided that it needed to levy 100% taxation? How would we stop it? How would it collect this "culture tax" in the first place? Income? Consumption? Property? Breathing tax?

I think the notion is worth exploring though -- if those concerns can be addressed, then we just might be onto something.
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Old 10-10-2007, 01:46 PM   #171
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They said the similar things when the printing press was invented.
the printing press did not remove any author jobs or other high paid jobs. It actually increased the money for them. The only people out of work were the monks that made the hand made copies. I suspect you are just making this up anyway. Can you back up your claim?

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Old 10-10-2007, 01:48 PM   #172
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You're close, I'm not talking about the content being free to all members, just having to be a member (of some outlet) to buy the content -- that would provide a way to indelibly link a given file to a given person (assuming that's possible), and cut them off when they went out of bounds. That way content could be priced reasonably but there's be repercussions for distribution.

Of course the obvious problem on that would be if enough people decided to distribute anyway then the content would be in the wild and couldn't be un-distributed. I think I'm looking for a way to expand the basic idea that Baen follows, but put some consequences in it for 'sharing.' I'm not in love with the idea in any case, just kicking it around.

I see some merit in this idea, except for a couple of things that concern me.

The biggest one is that I don't want government(s) involved in the trafficking of things such as books, even second hand. Setting aside the bloat and waste that would come along with it, it will be too tempting to someone sometime to attempt to exert control over what's distributed, and that's a bad thing.

The second is that if it's a governmental agency, it's too hard to go beyond a given nation's borders, which would effectively mean that the population of whatever country or countries did this would support those that didn't. If it was a majority of support versus a minority of free-riders, that'd probably still work well enough, but if not, it would fall apart completely.

If we could figure out a way to make it some sort of internationally accepted agency then we might be getting somewhere But then we'd have the risks of having an agency that can levy taxes that doesn't answer in any way shape or form to the taxees -- what if it decided that it needed to levy 100% taxation? How would we stop it? How would it collect this "culture tax" in the first place? Income? Consumption? Property? Breathing tax?

I think the notion is worth exploring though -- if those concerns can be addressed, then we just might be onto something.
You forgot the most important thing. Governments tend to censure stuff that they don't like.

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Old 10-10-2007, 02:02 PM   #173
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Distrust of governments is one thing, but you're likely to have the same issues with corporations, but without any oversight to keep them honest. Organizations can be more liberal, but have the same cross-country issues that governments have.

I don't see this as working until the entire planet is under one government, or at least, one common financial market. (This is me, not holding my breath.)

To me, direct subsidizing (salaries) through advertisers/governments/corporations/organizations/patrons/what-have-you is looking better and better, at least for a realistic near-term solution. Then it's up to the artist to find their own financial source. If such subsidization was tax-deductible (and in many places, it is), it would be financially attractive for many institutions and individuals. And at least, given the global market, it might be easier to find your patron.

Of course, substantially, this might not be much different from working for any production company...
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:28 PM   #174
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Distrust of governments is one thing, but you're likely to have the same issues with corporations, but without any oversight to keep them honest. Organizations can be more liberal, but have the same cross-country issues that governments have.
Organizations and corporations only have the same problem if there is only one of them. And it is not misplaced distrust of governments. There are proven instances all the time of government censorship.

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Old 10-10-2007, 02:32 PM   #175
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You forgot the most important thing. Governments tend to censure stuff that they don't like.
That's precisely what I mean by:
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... it will be too tempting to someone sometime to attempt to exert control over what's distributed, and that's a bad thing.
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:37 PM   #176
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Apologies if I've misunderstood you, but what you seem to be saying is that you think everything should be free. That's all well and good, but who's going to provide this "free stuff" for you? How does the content creator, such as myself, make a living?
Hmm. I think I'm confusing the issue.

I'm saying a few things:

1) Everything is going to be free. This isn't a value judgment about whether they *should* be free. If you're not giving your stuff away, someone will be giving it away for you. (Or someone who gives stuff away will enter your market segment, like Netscape with the browser or Google with the spreadsheet).

2) You can't stop this effectively with laws or technology. Laws are too difficult to enforce, technology is too easy to break.

3) Trying to stop this with laws or technology causes more harm than good. Laws make us less free, technology makes us more annoyed.

4) The current business model of most content producers is "make the original for free, sell the copies" - that is, an author doesn't make any money while writing a book, they only make money when each copy is sold.

5) A world where copies are free is very, very bad for this business model.

6) It is good for society if content is being produced.

7) There are other business models that will allow content producers to produce content.

8) An army of content producers trying to find business models has a good chance of success, although some will fail.

9) (This is the most controversial one, I think) The benefits to society of a world where copies are free is greater than the harm.

So... I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone else, to give things away for free. I'm not saying that content producers are doing it for the good of society. I'm saying, society has a problem. People want content, but people don't want to pay for copies. We need to solve this.

I'm also saying that it _will_ be solved, and that content _will_ be created. (This may be naively optimistic).

I'm also saying that we'll be better off, in the long run.
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:41 PM   #177
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Organizations and corporations only have the same problem if there is only one of them. And it is not misplaced distrust of governments. There are proven instances all the time of government censorship.

Dale
I didn't mean to imply that there weren't... only that corporations can be even more censoring, more manipulative, and more controlling, and without the benefit of the public exerting some control or oversight, there is no mechanism to keep them honest. And you don't have to be the only company to exert a monopoly control over an industry, even despite government efforts to prevent it (doesn't any company fitting that description come to mind?).
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:48 PM   #178
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4) The current business model of most content producers is "make the original for free, sell the copies" - that is, an author doesn't make any money while writing a book, they only make money when each copy is sold.

5) A world where copies are free is very, very bad for this business model.
Agreed. Time to switch to paying the author once for the original, then letting the content go free. Where are my patrons?

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9) (This is the most controversial one, I think) The benefits to society of a world where copies are free is greater than the harm.
Probably debatable into the next millennium, but I'll let that one go...

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I'm also saying that it _will_ be solved, and that content _will_ be created. (This may be naively optimistic).
Hear, hear.
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Old 10-10-2007, 03:06 PM   #179
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Okay, I'm sorry bingle, that was probably a bit harsh.

I guess my thinking is that the only way something like this is going to work is that it becomes so attractive to become a patron (financial incentives, opportunities, I don't know what) that prospective patrons are searching out artists, willing to bankroll them a comfortable salary to produce anything they damned well please.

Because the other option is, simply, working for publishers/producers, and creating what they tell you to create.

Guess which one I think will be more likely to happen.
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Old 10-10-2007, 03:26 PM   #180
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I guess my thinking is that the only way something like this is going to work is that it becomes so attractive to become a patron (financial incentives, opportunities, I don't know what) that prospective patrons are searching out artists, willing to bankroll them a comfortable salary to produce anything they damned well please.
The patron model isn't something I'm arguing for; I just threw that out there as a possibility (because everyone, including me, has a tendency to be blinded by "the way things are" as the only way to do things.)

Actually, I don't think a patronage model would work for books (although I could be wrong... Someone should try it!)

I'm actually making very few value judgments here, I don't know why I can't get that across :-) People seem to think I'm in favor of a lot of things that I just see as realities. I might like sunny days, but arguing that we should have more of them is pointless. The rain is coming, and all we can do is try to stay afloat.
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