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Old 03-23-2012, 03:38 PM   #46
anamardoll
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That's one of the things that always made me smile about Fallout. The standard currency in the post-apocalyptic world is bottle caps. Not very realistic, but funny in so many ways.
Buh. I did not know that.

Some of the beer caps are pretty, though. What's the one with the mountain?
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:42 PM   #47
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Coors? *innocently*
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #48
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Coors? *innocently*
Possibly! (I can't drink alcohol, so I'm not very good with their branding.)
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:48 PM   #49
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Coors. Personally I don't touch the stuff... I like real beer.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:52 PM   #50
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Here we go, you were right:

http://i.colnect.net/images/f/336/341/Coors.jpg

Once dug one of those out of the dirt thinking it was pretty. I felt silly later when I realized it was a common cap and not something rare and exotic.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:16 PM   #51
Steven Lake
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anamardoll, trust me, it's just best to stay away from beer. I've been dry almost my entire life, and I'm happy for it.

Now, back to the original topic, and speaking of bottle caps as currency, one of the topics that isn't touched on much is how the monetary system will work during that period. Obviously you'll start out with bartering for things with things, as even gold and silver won't be worth poo during the initial stages as people want food and survival items vs shiny stuff.

Only once things settle down into a more stable system, and almost certainly when long distance trade becomes a reality again (long distance being 20+ miles in a low/no tech society, or 100-200+ in a mid-tech society with motorized transport) will gold, silver, gems, and other items become viable currency. It's unlikely that you'd see any kind of paper fiat currency or payment method in the first 100 years, or even the first 200, as it takes a strong central government to make that viable.

Even so paper currency only came into mainstream use in the mid 1600's. Before that the most you had was a note of credit that went between two banks, or outposts, or wherever. I think it was the Templars that originally created the idea of paper fiat currency with their creative coded bank note system, and Sweden (or at least the area that became Sweden) was the first to officially create the world's first completely fiat currency system.

So during the initial survival and recovery period, you'd be doing a lot of barter and trading just like they did back in colonial days. Believe it or not, except in the big cities of America, most commerce centered around barter. The farther out into the boonies you got, the less currency you saw, and the more barter became the sole way to trade what you had for what you needed. I really think it'd be an important element of any survival situation, yet I see so few books that actually touch on it. Yet you go look at Haiti, or Chili or other places. What was the predominant form of exchange during their initial disaster periods? It sure as heck wasn't paper money, that's for sure.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:50 PM   #52
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It's unlikely that you'd see any kind of paper fiat currency or payment method in the first 100 years, or even the first 200, as it takes a strong central government to make that viable.

Even so paper currency only came into mainstream use in the mid 1600's. Before that the most you had was a note of credit that went between two banks, or outposts, or wherever.
I think you'd get paper currency earlier than that, because there's now a long-established history of it. (Also: pre-1600's, no printing press. Printing presses made paper currency cheap enough to be widely used. Post-apoc, printing presses would be rare--but it only takes one to make the practice viable in a large region.) Banks & other wealth repositories would issue banknotes on any medium that's hard to duplicate... and in a post-apoc world, counterfeiting would be a lot harder.

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So during the initial survival and recovery period, you'd be doing a lot of barter and trading just like they did back in colonial days. Believe it or not, except in the big cities of America, most commerce centered around barter.
I think you'd see a lot more communities that almost eliminated currency/exchange systems, as people just work together to survive. A lot of low-tech socialism/communism around the necessities, because when resources are scarce enough, there's no room for bargaining about value. But people would barter & bargain for luxuries.

I suspect in the immediate decade or two after the apocalypse, you'd see a lot of communities *trying* to use bottle caps for money, or old coins, or something else, because the survivors are used to money, and they'll want to think that if they can reestablish currency, they've got one of the essential parts of civilization covered.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:58 PM   #53
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Bottlecaps as currency isn't such a strange idea in a post-apocalyptic world. It reminds me of the use of cowrie shells as money. It worked fine, until someone figured out a way to get cowrie shells in mass quantities. Bottlecaps are a similar limited quantity token, the problem is that someone is going to dig up a landfill for the bottlecaps, and just like the cowrie shell, they are going to cause massive inflation.

Of course a post-apocalyptic society might have little need for money. Trade would be radically scaled down, and barter would propably make more sense.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:06 PM   #54
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It does make for an interesting thought-experiment. What goods would have the most post-apocalypse value density?

Until spoilage, it seems obvious to assume canned and dried foods would be worth a lot.

Ammunition and weapons also seem obvious. There is a dual benefit, hunting animals and protection from people. I believe well-kept modern gunpowder-and-primer ammo remains usable for a century or more. I do expect to see more bows, crossbows, and slings mostly because the ammunition is often recoverable and requires less technology to create.

But there are items whose value density may be even higher. How about ceramic candle-type water purification filters? Or seeds for food plants? If you lived near an uncontaminated lake or ocean then fishing equipment would be amazingly valuable. Fire starters, as simple as flint & steel, would be a boon when it gets cold. Antibiotics would be worth a fortune, again assuming they haven't spoiled and the super germs don't make them obsolete.

I do wonder if there are enough people with the skills required to rebuild civilization or if it would come back at a similar (slow) rate to how our original industrial/scientific state evolved. A talented group of outdoorsmen, farmers, smiths, engineers, and other scientists could make quick strides if left unmolested to accomplish the task.

Can you imagine the religious power that might be afforded the doom-sayer who finally gets it right?
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:40 PM   #55
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The doomsayer who got it right might find that the credit got snatched away from him by someone more charismatic. I've got to imagine that would be frustrating.

Antibiotics would be of great value, for a time. As you noted, they would run out. Medicine that we take for granted might become totally unavailable. You would need to relearn some older medicine, herbal remedies, for one example. And mercury. Yes, mercury. Nasty stuff, but it was used for fighting infection until better medicines came along. In our post-apocalyptic world, we might have to resort to mercury to treat infection, even with the toxic effects.

There would be so much to re-learn, we would have to learn to do what our great-great-great grandparents did. Working with metal would be of great value. The person who blacksmiths at a hobby would now have a very important job. Extracting metal from ore would be useful, but that could wait to be relearned, there would be plenty of scrap metal.

Now, you often have in post-apocalyptic fiction the bands of raiders, but they can only exist if there is something to raid. They are dependent on these communities having enough production that there is something to steal. Sooner or later, some of these raiders are going to settle down, and instead of raiding, offer protection, in exchange for feudal powers. It might be better to have a lord who takes some than raiders who take it all.

In the long run, knowledge is what is really needed. In the very short term, you just need to stay alive, the canned good economy can get you through the initial chaos. But you have to get through that to a state where you can provide for the basics, making your own food, clothing and shelter. If you can get through that immediate stage, you can use the knowledge you have saved to rebuild more than just the basic needs.
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:15 PM   #56
Steven Lake
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I do wonder if there are enough people with the skills required to rebuild civilization or if it would come back at a similar (slow) rate to how our original industrial/scientific state evolved. A talented group of outdoorsmen, farmers, smiths, engineers, and other scientists could make quick strides if left unmolested to accomplish the task.
Well, interestingly enough, the answer to that comes from the collapse of Rome. It's something that's sometimes referred to as "Critical Population Mass". IE, it's the point when a society has enough viable individuals to begin "advancing", or in some cases able to maintain what they already have. Prior to that they're stuck in primitive survival mode. There was a Stargate SG1 episode where one of the malevolent alien races infected another competing culture, causing 99% of the people to become sterile. As the old people died off they slowly lost their technology and were forced back into a simple agrarian lifestyle because there weren't enough new people to maintain all the systems their ancestors created. With a birthrate of less than at least 1:1, the society collapsed.

The same would be true in a post apocalyptic landscape. At first you'd only have enough people to achieve the basic survival needs of the community. Only when those were satisfied sufficiently, even to the point of having a sufficient surplus, could you afford to have non-producing individuals, like musicians, doctors, lawyers, inventors, etc. You would also need a birth rate of no less than 2:1 (2 births for every 1 living person) in order to get the society back into a viable state within a 100 year timeframe. Part of this is because 1) in a survival scenario, you'll have a high infant mortality rate. 2) You'll have a high rate of disease, killing off a number of children and adults before they get much past their 30's.

So in short you need "surplus", both of people and resources, and also "security" before you can have any hope of getting beyond a stage 2 society. For those who are unfamiliar with this ranking system, here's the list of disaster and recovery stages.

Disaster levels
* Stage 0 - Before the disaster. Everything is dandy.
* Stage 1 - The Disaster
* Stage 2 - The Aftermath (ie, survival)
* Stage 3 - Recovery (picking up the pieces and trying to achieve some kind of stability. The covering of basic needs by yourself, including growing food and other things begins.)
* Stage 4 - Rebuilding (Restoring the low and mid level needs of a society, return of commerce and basic resources)
* Stage 5 - Restoration (the return to normalacy, or what you lost before. Society reaches a state of "modernality".)

There's also issues with the severity of the disaster, as that too will determine how long it'll take to recover. Here's a list of the levels a disaster can take and the amount of damage associated with them.

Level of Impact
* Level 0 - No impact. Everything is completely fine and dandy.
* Level 1 - Minor impact. Sensitive items and systems disrupted. Destruction possible, but unlikely.
* Level 2 - Intermediate impact - General items and services impacted or disrupted. Minor destruction. Injury and death possible.
* Level 3 - Major impact - Noticeable destruction. Critical services interrupted, such as food, water transportation, etc. Some lives lost.
* Level 4 - Extreme impact - Major damage and destruction. Loss of shelter, cities, food, clean water, etc. Lots of lives lost.
* Level 5 - Apocalyptic - Massive destruction, loss of almost all critical elements, extreme loss of life. Very few survivors, if any, and if so, they're widely scattered with little to no resources.

So for example, a disaster with an impact rating of 1 would be something like a severe thunderstorm and would really go almost unnoticed, aside from a few general conveniences, and you'd never really fall out of the stage 5 level of society. Now a level 4 disaster could very easily put you into stage 1 and 2 very quickly. So it really depends on that as well. I also have an "area of impact" scale somewhere, but I don't have it handy, but that too is something to look into. On a small side note, as a bit of fun trivia, when using these lists to refer to a disaster, the method of denoting the intensity and severity of the disaster or its current state is SLA, or Stage, Level, and Area. So an S1L2A1 would be a stage one disaster with a level 2 amount of damage over an area 1 damage region. Anyhow, just some useless trivia I thought you might find interesting.
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:46 PM   #57
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How about ceramic candle-type water purification filters?
This may seem like an aside, but in the D&D setting Dark Sun, most of the city-states use something called the "ceramic piece" as a basic unit of currency. It, like the Fremen water rings in the Dune series, was a system of currency based on obtaining water from the public water supply. There was never any mention of seed, so one can assume that the Templars were actively banking seed as well as water.

WARNING: SPOILERS

After all, the Sorcerer-Kings needed a ton of life energy so they could undergo the rituals needed to become dragons, and they couldn't drain enough energy from the plants and animals alone. Kinda grisly, but at least they had a bit of forethought.

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Old 03-24-2012, 10:16 PM   #58
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You would also need a birth rate of no less than 2:1 (2 births for every 1 living person) in order to get the society back into a viable state within a 100 year timeframe.
2:1 over what timespan? Per lifetime? (Which is what it sounds like.) Any idea how that would translate to, for example, a 10-year period? How fast does a population need to grow in order to be stable-and-growing?
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Old 03-25-2012, 06:56 AM   #59
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Would anyone like one of the words from the title of this thread corrrected?


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Old 03-25-2012, 07:22 AM   #60
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Would anyone like one of the words from the title of this thread corrrected?


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Having misspelled words in a Mobileread thread title is a sure sign of the Apocolypse (sic).

BTW, is "corrrected" pronounced with a "rolling r?"
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