Liquavista: Threat to E-Ink?

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by skyline

first of all that was your 666th post which is cool, and secondly a typical seven inch tablet runs on really low power processor, usually ARM, and the main consumption drain comes from the screen. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Even in very optimistic estimates, the battery conservation potential of Pixel Qi is limited. You're not saving 10x the power like they said on Engadget. You're not saving 4x the power. You will be lucky if you get anywhere really close to 2x the battery life, which may push some devices into the all-day-usable realm for some users.

I'm simply saying that this is not the same kind of thing as dedicated e-paper technologies. It's not marketed that way, and it is a bit unfair to include as an especially similar product, especially when it comes to displaying fixed content.

Originally Posted by skyline

According to Mary Lou Jepsen 5 times that in reflective mode on a netbook screen. Smaller size tablet screens will consume less, I guess!

Yes, 5 times less than 2500mW is 500mW. They are hoping to get down to around 100mW. Static content in e-paper like EPD or IMOD is less than 1mW. According to this (whose accuracy I can't immediately confirm or deny), the reflective LCD in the jetBook pulls around 20mW.

[Abelturd]

I foretold great future for Liquavista technology elsewhere. Because from my layman's POV it's like eink, but without all the eink's downsides - slow refresh rate, no color. It has low power consumption, comparable contrast (which I likewise consider to be low in eink readers).
And I don't quite get this multi-purpose vs. single-purpose antagonism some people are pushing on MR.
Even with a multi-purpose device one can still use it for a single thing, e.g. reading ebooks, yet the potential for performing a number of tasks on it is there (which is excellent), checking mail, taking notes, web-browsing, etc. That's why I see future in e-readers running Android OS with a display technology similar to Liquavista.
I forgot to mention that I'm strongly against the netbook form-factor in e-readers. I like the reader to resemble a book and I want to be able to hold in one hand, so never a netbook as an e-reader for me.

[skyline]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Even in very optimistic estimates, the battery conservation potential of Pixel Qi is limited. You're not saving 10x the power like they said on Engadget. You're not saving 4x the power. You will be lucky if you get anywhere really close to 2x the battery life, which may push some devices into the all-day-usable realm for some users.

I'm sure that your estimates are based on facts and numbers so what is the consumption of an ARM processor? If we know that then we can work out a rough estimate on the overall consumption of the device.

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I'm simply saying that this is not the same kind of thing as dedicated e-paper technologies. It's not marketed that way, and it is a bit unfair to include as an especially similar product, especially when it comes to displaying fixed content.

To not mention the disadvantages of e-ink and the advantages of pixel qi is also very unfair. I don't think that people went mad for no reason and decided that pixel QI, mirasol and liquivista are the future, they must have pretty good reasons to make such claims.

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Yes, 5 times less than 2500mW is 500mW. They are hoping to get down to around 100mW. Static content in e-paper like EPD or IMOD is less than 1mW. According to this (whose accuracy I can't immediately confirm or deny), the reflective LCD in the jetBook pulls around 20mW.

Never mind jetbook and e-ink for a moment. If a 10 inch pixel QI pulls out 500mW then a 7 inch would consume roughly half as much? Let's say 250-300mw. Now is that any good or should we just loose all our hope for a better bang for our money?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by skyline

I'm sure that your estimates are based on facts and numbers so what is the consumption of an ARM processor? If we know that then we can work out a rough estimate on the overall consumption of the device.

Tricky. Basically, most of the CPU will only be powered on when there's work to do. So for an e-ink device, the power draw when it's sitting around with no screen changes will be extremely low.

If other screen technologies require active management at all times, even at fairly low levels, it can mean higher CPU power draws.

[Phogg]

If color and contrast are equal to cheap 4 colot ink printing on yellow-ish paper, then it will be as good as comic books were up through the mid 1970's.

I am up for that for comics, in a ten inch or larger screen size.

I suspect a lot of comic fandom is as well.

[michaelmiller]

My BeBook, PRS-505 and PRS-600 are all brilliant for reading books and I can honestly say that my readers are the some of the best purchases I've made.

All I want is what Phogg wants. A large screen reader so I can read my comics electronically instead of carting them around with me. I don't care if it is grayscale. I grew up in the 70's and all my comics were black and white.

I bought a netbook to read comics on but it is just not the same as a physical comic or even reading a grayscale version on the 505 (so long as there is no text and only 4-6 panels on a page).

I've been eyeing the KDX, IREX DR1000S, Que and the Skiff. Only the Que and Skiff seem ideal at moment so guess it is still going to be a while.

[Crowl]

I'm not sure why some people are so eager to see the demise of e-ink, more competition is a good thing for us as consumers, more companies making screens is bound to push down prices and not just result in more features at the same pricepoint.

Personally, I don't care who makes the screen on my next gadget as long as its cheaper than my current one and improves on it without harming things like screen clarity and battery life.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by Crowl

I'm not sure why some people are so eager to see the demise of e-ink, more competition is a good thing for us as consumers, more companies making screens is bound to push down prices and not just result in more features at the same pricepoint.

Personally, I don't care who makes the screen on my next gadget as long as its cheaper than my current one and improves on it without harming things like screen clarity and battery life.

I don't really care who makes my next screen as long as it's faster and has better clarity than e-ink without harming battery life much.

[lene1949]

Originally Posted by Archergal5219

I never really thought e-ink was a great solution for readers. About all it really has going for it is low battery consumption. Some folks really like the print quality, but I find it slow and low-contrast-y and.

That's why I really like reading on my old Palm device or netbook. Sometimes I really like to change background/type colors. And page turns are so fast I don't always see them.

I ALWAYS see the page turns on my Sony.

I agree... The pageturns on my palm are instant, which makes the e-ink seem excruciatingly slow.. Also I read on night shifts and the backlit display just can't be beaten by the book light I bought for my Hanvon..

[kjk]

Originally Posted by Archergal5219

I never really thought e-ink was a great solution for readers. About all it really has going for it is low battery consumption. Some folks really like the print quality, but I find it slow and low-contrast-y and.

That's why I really like reading on my old Palm device or netbook. Sometimes I really like to change background/type colors. And page turns are so fast I don't always see them.

I ALWAYS see the page turns on my Sony.

Yes. I doubt my next purchase will have an eInk screen, at least until I see one without a noticable (to me) page turn flash.

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by anurag

Like that of e-ink, the power consumption of Liquavista’s display technique remains low because a charge needs to applied only when the display needs to change, unlike LCD screens which need a constant source of power.

Everything I have read, including the description you just posted, says that this is false. Liquavista still needs power to maintain the image.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

Everything I have read, including the description you just posted, says that this is false. Liquavista still needs power to maintain the image.

Sounds that way to me too. Even their website says things like "active matrix" and "defined refresh rate". That sounds like a continuous power draw to me.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

Everything I have read, including the description you just posted, says that this is false. Liquavista still needs power to maintain the image.

Yes, though that amount can be tuned to extremely low amounts with slow refresh apparently. I'm not sure of the number as they've not been too clear on that, though they've said it approaches true bistable levels.

[BeTaRe]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

Everything I have read, including the description you just posted, says that this is false. Liquavista still needs power to maintain the image.

I'm of the same opinion. Liquavista only stated that they rewrote the algorithms to make their screen much more efficient. They still would require power to produce a screen image as the screen is based on LCD tech.

To my knowledge the only color displays that use power only when the screen change is Mirasol and the Bridgestone QR-LPD screen. Mirasol displays color by changing the distance between the film and reflective layer the light bounces off and QR-LPD uses liquid powder that charges to the screen. Both require no energy to continue to display the page.

So far I haven't seen anything from Liquavista stating their displays work that way.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by lene1949

I agree... The pageturns on my palm are instant, which makes the e-ink seem excruciatingly slow.. Also I read on night shifts and the backlit display just can't be beaten by the book light I bought for my Hanvon..

But, isn't the question... Does this slow down your reading speed?

I assume with a palm you are turning the page 2 or maybe 3 times per and eInk page on a 6inch reader. Also, I know my Kindle (slow eink) turns the page faster then I did when I read a pbook.

Also, my Camry is slower than a Porsche 911 yet we can both drive down the highway side by side at 75 MPH.

BOb