05-14-2013, 03:40 PM | #16 |
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05-14-2013, 03:48 PM | #17 | |
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But "I could care less" is just wrong. |
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05-14-2013, 08:57 PM | #18 |
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No, it isn't. It's a proper idiom and has been used in print for 50 years. See also "I could give a rat's *ss". Language doesn't usually have much to do with logic.
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05-14-2013, 09:10 PM | #19 |
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Bad grammar and spelling in the hands of a master is an art form. Not every work of literature has to be Oxford perfect, as Salma Rushdie and Toni Morrison have proven.
My significant other has a weak spot for idiomocracy, a word I made up for idioms that defy any rules of construction. Let the mind wander and you can go anywhere, including the moon. |
05-15-2013, 12:53 AM | #20 |
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05-15-2013, 04:59 AM | #21 |
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Just because it's been used in print for fifty years doesn't make it correct. And your analogy is faulty.
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05-15-2013, 05:13 AM | #22 |
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Yet it seems the people who dislike "could care less" are fighting a losing battle. Here's a statistic about the ratio of "could" vs. "couldn't" in the NYT:
----------"couldn't care less"--"could care less" ratio 1960-1969 ------- 245 ---------- 5 --------- 2.04% 1970-1979 ------- 369 --------- 42 ------- 11.38% 1980-1989 ------- 274 --------- 77 ------- 28.10% 1990-1999 ------- 248 -------- 147 ------- 59.27% 2000-2009 ------- 259 -------- 194 ------- 74.90% The whole article here. |
05-15-2013, 06:49 AM | #23 |
The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠
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It seems, according to Google's Ngram viewer, that couldn't care less is still the large majority of uses.
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05-15-2013, 07:38 AM | #24 | |
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Here's my question about that: Why should our passion for conveying thought clearly be expressed as a battle with other people? I can't change someone else's writing style, and I certainly don't want to shame them for it. The only thing I can do is improve my own. When others say they wish they cared less than they do but are actually trying to say they don't care in the slightest, I try to overlook their mistake. If they aspire to correctness and have made it known they won't flinch or wilt if I point out they've misspoken, then I might act on their implicit request -- if I think it is sincere -- and ask the question: Do you mean you couldn't care less? What I try never to do is behave as if they've failed an intelligence test. In my own writing, however, I do try to be vigilant. The aim is to excise any errors or overtones that could distract the reader from what I'm trying to say. It doesn't matter whether the style and character are discrete (as in Flaubert's "A Simple Heart") or seamless (as in Last Exit to Brooklyn, which also happens to be ostensibly indiscreet). The goal for any of us is to judge our writing mercilessly. "Move among the lovers of perfection alone. Seek ever to stand in that hard Sophoclean light and take your wounds from it gladly." -- Ezra Pound, "Xelia" But here's the thing: When interacting with friends, I believe it's important to respect the casual qualities of their communication. If I like someone -- let alone, love them -- then I'd rather have them feel comfortable with me than writhe on the tweezers of self-consciousness. Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 05-15-2013 at 08:00 AM. |
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05-15-2013, 09:31 AM | #25 | ||
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And I think that isn't only a bad thing; doesn't it show that many people still feel language does matter? Yet I think there is a big difference between public and private discourse. In personal contact with people I try to understand what they want to say and wouldn't start any nitpicking - unless I would see a real danger of misunderstanding. In public discourse (journalism, politics...) it's different due to the risk of sloppy language - intentionally or unintentionally - obfuscating truth. That's why teaching good, clear writing - which includes really thinking about what one wants to say - would be very nice. It's certainly not happening at schools where I live. But I won't start correcting my wife's or my friends' every little slip of grammar; life would become very unpleasant very quickly. But back to the "care less" problem. I remembered reading a linguist's defence of "I could care less". I thought it was David Crystal, but actually it was Steven Pinker. His The Language Instinct contains a nice polemic against the "language mavens", and it contains this passage: Quote:
And back again to language battles: Prototype semantics (the kind of semantics that claims - to the horror of classical logicians - that a robin is "more bird" than a penguin, for instance) can really spice up a party. You only have to find an item which is not a good example of its category. In German it works very nicely with a mug. Some will say it is a Tasse, while others will insist that it can never be called a Tasse but only a Pott or a Becher. Usually groups are split in half about this issue, and nobody is willing to compromise. Great fun! What could you use for that game in English? Last edited by doubleshuffle; 05-15-2013 at 09:35 AM. |
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05-15-2013, 02:10 PM | #26 |
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If you wish to have no friends, be pedantic in speaking. I will tolerate scrutiny of my written words more easily than what is said over coffee.
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05-15-2013, 06:31 PM | #27 |
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Friends ? what for ? A pox on friends !
They are not there when you really need them. I don't need any friends, I couldn't care less about friends ... Books are my friends, books are good friends |
05-15-2013, 07:36 PM | #28 |
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05-15-2013, 08:06 PM | #29 |
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Some people focus on the small things, like grammar, and often miss the big things, like context.
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05-15-2013, 09:20 PM | #30 |
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The thing that bothers me is when someone says "Do you mind if..." and the answer is yes. So the person who asked goes ahead and does it anyway.
The answer should actually be no if you don't mind. |
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