Amazon Kindle might be the worst thing that could happen to e-books?

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Note I didn't say publishers, I said "people producing ebooks", by which I meant distributors (in particular those that distribute non DRM versions) and power end users, who will presumably have to maintain a catalog of ebooks in multiple formats.

I wish Amazon had taken the very little additional trouble to support an actual open ebook format, especially since they've taken the trouble to support HTML. Actually, the fact that they don't support epub/oebps leads me to suspect their HTML support is very limited.

There is no reason to support amazons format any more that you support LRX. MobiPocket works fine. You just make .mobi files like always. You can sell Mobi pocket non-DRM for the Kindle. you can use the pc program to convert PDF files. You seem to not realize that internally this is MobiPocket and the HTML support is the same as MobiPocket.

Dale

[Barcey]

Both Sony and now Amazon are trying to emulate the Apple iTunes model but they're only seeing the model through the greedy eyes of a corporation. They've failed to see how Apple managed to get to where they are.

When I bought my original iPod I could import my existing CD library at no cost. I could also continue to buy CD's from other music stores (if I wanted to) but it was easier to buy from iTunes. If I did buy from iTunes they allowed me to burn it to a CD. In other words they threw me enough bones and gave me enough leash that I ended up eating the dog food and now my music library is all on iTunes. They also haven't upset me enough to consider going through the effort of converting it.

Amazon has demonstrated zero good faith with this model. Their interpretation of fairplay is play by our rules and you can't buy from anyone else. I can't see how this can succeed.

[groch]

I ordered a Kindle today, before knowing this forum existed. What I have read thus far confirms my decision.

I understand how anyone who has invested in an e-reading Sony, or iliad or other device would be upset that the Kindle is not compatible. However, the current market in e-books is far different than the music market when Apple introduced the iPod.

CDs were a huge mass market....and a large number of people were already converting them to MP3. This has never been the case with e-books, and I know of no way to easily convert the mass market reading format (print) to any ebook format.

I bought today because for the first time eBooks cost less than print, and because they promise a wide variety of titles. I think that will be most important to most new buyers, and in the eBook market, generating new buyers is what is most important to Amazon, and I expect to the future of eBooks.

George

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

There is no reason to support amazons format any more that you support LRX. MobiPocket works fine. You just make .mobi files like always. You can sell Mobi pocket non-DRM for the Kindle. you can use the pc program to convert PDF files. You seem to not realize that internally this is MobiPocket and the HTML support is the same as MobiPocket.

Dale

Just because Sony did something wrong is no justification for Amazon doing something wrong. And mobipocket has no cross platform customizable, open source converter, which means for someone like me, it's a dead-end format unless I take the trouble to write the converter.

I've been looking over mobipocket and its not HTML, its a proprietary customization of HTML, for example, to specify text indent on a paragraph you have to use the width attribute on a <p> tag which is not part of the HTML spec. It doesn't support CSS. Even microsoft's .lit format is superior technically to mobi and is more usable thanks to the guys at convertlit. And when I say more usable I mean one can convert both to and from it, on multiple platforms. I don't care about DRM.

Another problem is that .mobi is a technically inferior format. This is because it was designed originally for very low performace devices with very small screens. Witness the numerous threads on images in mobipocket in this forum.

So to summarize, if Amazon cared about the device rather than about selling books, they should have added support for a decent, open ebook format.

[Andy Baird]

"PDF is designed expressly for the purpose of preserving the page layout, that specific design point is totally contrary to e-books where the screen size is necessarily variable."

I couldn't agree more. PDF is very poorly suited to ebooks. Almost any other format (e.g., RTF) is a better choice.

Andy Baird
http://www.andybaird.com/travels/

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Just because Sony did something wrong is no justification for Amazon doing something wrong. And mobipocket has no cross platform customizable, open source converter, which means for someone like me, it's a dead-end format unless I take the trouble to write the converter.

I've been looking over mobipocket and its not HTML, its a proprietary customization of HTML, for example, to specify text indent on a paragraph you have to use the width attribute on a <p> tag which is not part of the HTML spec. It doesn't support CSS. Even microsoft's .lit format is superior technically to mobi and is more usable thanks to the guys at convertlit. And when I say more usable I mean one can convert both to and from it, on multiple platforms. I don't care about DRM.

Another problem is that .mobi is a technically inferior format. This is because it was designed originally for very low performace devices with very small screens. Witness the numerous threads on images in mobipocket in this forum.

So to summarize, if Amazon cared about the device rather than about selling books, they should have added support for a decent, open ebook format.

With this data, I agree. Mobi is pretty old format although they do a creator program that is free that can be used to convert files. It has a command line mode. They have promised to support epub at the source level but the creator program certainly does not so far. The fact that they use Mobi should be no big surprise to anybody. Why would they buy a company and then use another format? The image support is better if you use there jpeg option on the command line of the creator program and the source can specify a larger image.

Dale

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by groch

I ordered a Kindle today, before knowing this forum existed. What I have read thus far confirms my decision.

I understand how anyone who has invested in an e-reading Sony, or iliad or other device would be upset that the Kindle is not compatible. However, the current market in e-books is far different than the music market when Apple introduced the iPod.

CDs were a huge mass market....and a large number of people were already converting them to MP3. This has never been the case with e-books, and I know of no way to easily convert the mass market reading format (print) to any ebook format.

I bought today because for the first time eBooks cost less than print, and because they promise a wide variety of titles. I think that will be most important to most new buyers, and in the eBook market, generating new buyers is what is most important to Amazon, and I expect to the future of eBooks.

George

Welcome to Mobile Read groch!

Ebooks have been around for a long time. If you think of it closely, every book has to go through an electronic phase for print, it's only natural that it lives this way for us to appreciate. There have been numerous ebook readers in the past and most of them have partially failed for numerous reasons. But it's coming back now since the introduction of eink. Browse through the site, do searches, use our excellent Wiki section and you'll find all about ebooks and their associated devices around here. And beware... there is a lot to read!
Have fun!

[kovidgoyal]

It will be interesting to see how comprehensive the HTML support is. Will it support CSS? links to other files on the filesystem? links to images? Will it pre-paginate the HTML file? What will the layout and rendering performance be like?

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

It will be interesting to see how comprehensive the HTML support is. Will it support CSS? links to other files on the filesystem? links to images? Will it pre-paginate the HTML file? What will the layout and rendering performance be like?

Pagination is an interesting issue. The Kindle seems to have adopted a different strategy on the pagination issue. If you read their manual they talk about some arbitrary digital numbering scheme that survives font size changes. I am not sure what triggers the number to change. At first I thought it was paragraphs but I am not sure. Does look interesting to investigate. If you look at the manual you will see that the page is a range of numbers.

Dale

[jharker]

I don't see what all the DRM hooraw is about. Sure, the Kindle supports a DRMed format, but it also natively supports popular non-DRM formats. Look at the parallel:

PHP Code:

           Kindle     iPod
        +-------------------+
DRM     |   azw    |  m4p   |
        +----------+--------+
non-DRM |   mobi   |  mp3   |
        +----------+--------+ 


There's nothing stopping you from keeping your whole library in mobi format on your computer and updating to the Kindle by USB, in the same way that many people never buy from iTunes, keeping their music library in mp3 files.

If you don't trust Amazon, you don't have to go through them. Use the Kindle like you'd use an iPod. You still get these bonuses:

• Free Wikipedia wherever you are
• Easy file searching
• Built-in dictionary lookup
• Note taking
• Bookmarking

No other e-reader offers anything close to all those features built-in.

But the ease of wirelessly buying and downloading books and newspapers directly from Amazon is what will sell this to the average user and make it take off in a larger sense. We enthusiasts may be big in heart, but we're small in numbers. The Kindle is designed for the average user, not us.

And just like iTunes, with increasing popularity Amazon will eventually sell books without DRM restriction, probably for a small price markup.

The rising tide of the Kindle+Amazon combo will eventually improve and open up the e-book business, in exactly the same way that the DRMed iPod+iTunes combo changed music publishing.

[jharker]

A couple of details:

The Kindle supports mobi and txt natively. However, html and doc formats are NOT native and must be converted. Curiously, the Kindle user manual doesn't mention PDF support in any context.

As for criticism of mobi as a technically inferior format, please point out to me a decent open-standards format that is more commonly used for ebooks than mobi is. Like it or not, mobi is the de facto standard at the moment.

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by jharker

A couple of details:
As for criticism of mobi as a technically inferior format, please point out to me a decent open-standards format that is more commonly used for ebooks than mobi is. Like it or not, mobi is the de facto standard at the moment.

That's the point, there isn't one and Amazon is doing its best to make sure there never will be one. But as far as technically suprior formats for ebooks are concerned, a simple zip file with a opf file in it and HTML files for content would be superior. That's essentially what mobi is except that for legacy reasons they use a non-standard HTML variant.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by jharker

A couple of details:

The Kindle supports mobi and txt natively. However, html and doc formats are NOT native and must be converted via Amazon. Curiously, the Kindle user manual doesn't mention PDF support in any context.

As for criticism of mobi as a technically inferior format, please point out to me a decent open-standards format that is more commonly used for ebooks than mobi is. Like it or not, mobi is the de facto standard at the moment.

You can easily use the MobiReader on the pc to import all the formats including PDF. No need for the Amazon converter.

Dale

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by jharker

A couple of details:

The Kindle supports mobi and txt natively. However, html and doc formats are NOT native and must be converted. Curiously, the Kindle user manual doesn't mention PDF support in any context.

As for criticism of mobi as a technically inferior format, please point out to me a decent open-standards format that is more commonly used for ebooks than mobi is. Like it or not, mobi is the de facto standard at the moment.

Well. Actually. You see... The Kindle does *NOT* support .mobi directly. Nope. Users are reporting that html, doc and prc/mobi files (except for .txt) are getting translated into .azw. Which has it's own proprietary DRM crud.

Derek

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by groch

I ordered a Kindle today, before knowing this forum existed. What I have read thus far confirms my decision.

Welcome groch. I sincerely hope you enjoy your new Kindle and I'm sure you made the correct decision for your own needs. I'm sure you'll enjoy the e Ink display and many other fine features on the Kindle. I hope that you or anyone else who purchased a Kindle don't take my comments personally. I was just hoping that Amazon in good faith would allow their customers to purchase books from other companies and to sell ebooks that could be read on other vendors readers.

The Kindle is the correct choice for many people's needs but I think it would have met many more people's needs with a slightly different sales model and that would have been good for the whole industry.

Let us know what you think when you receive your Kindle and enjoy the forum.