04-04-2009, 12:43 PM | #31 | |
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My knowledge of what it's about comes - I'd guess - from the same source that yours does: news reports. |
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04-04-2009, 12:45 PM | #32 | |
zeldinha zippy zeldissima
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and as many many others have made clear, yes, this method is about as far from "foolproof" as it is possible to get. |
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04-04-2009, 12:48 PM | #33 | |
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04...three_strikes/ "The Register" is normally a reliable source of information about such things, but it may of course be wrong. |
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04-04-2009, 01:00 PM | #34 | |||
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and please note that the Register also uses the word "suspects" and not "proves". |
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04-04-2009, 01:06 PM | #35 |
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I agree that it is scandalous that only 1 in 40 deputies bothered to turn up for the debate. Whether or not the law is "legal", I'm not qualified to judge. Flawed though this law may be, I'm just happy that at least one country actually seems to be trying to take the huge problem of illegal downloading seriously. Whether the law is "good" or "bad", the French government is to be congratulated for realising that this is something that does matter, while others are just turning a blind eye to it.
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04-04-2009, 01:09 PM | #36 |
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i'm afraid i really don't find that "end justifies the means" argument even slightly convincing, particularly when the means are so clearly flawed, disproportionate, anti-constitutional and illegal as in this case. and also particularly as this discussion is precisely about the proposed *means* of addressing the issue, and not the issue itself.
that's the same argument often used to justify torture, are you in favor of that too ? |
04-04-2009, 01:15 PM | #37 | |
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The words used in the articles are "allegation" and "suspect" .... neither of which means anything more than an accusation. No proof .... just an accusation by someone. As mentioned, if you are ok with that, fine and dandy. Just make sure you don't have anyone in your life who wants to accuse you of something you haven't done. I prefer the innocent until proven guilty idea myself. You appear to be in favor of punishing people and waiting until later to find out if they have done anything wrong. Interesting concept, but not one I can support. |
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04-04-2009, 01:20 PM | #38 |
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Depends on the circumstances. Let's say that you knew that a terrorist had knowledge which could allow you to prevent a terrorist attack that would kill thousands of people, and that the only way to obtain that information was through torture. Would torturing one person to prevent the deaths of 10,000 innocent people be morally justifyable? You decide.
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04-04-2009, 01:24 PM | #39 |
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Curious fact, everyone
Harry, a citizen of Great Britain, has uploaded to MobileRead a number of books by the British author P.G Wodehouse. The books in question are still in copyright in GB, but not the USA (where he got the files and where MobileRead has its servers).
Under this law, Harry would have lost his internet connection. |
04-04-2009, 01:25 PM | #40 |
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Yes, and quite right too! I've also done 35mph in a 30 zone, so lock me up and throw away the key!
Really, do you think that this disqualifies me from believing downloading material illegally from current, living, authors, is wrong? |
04-04-2009, 01:26 PM | #41 |
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How do you know, without any doubt, that the terrorist actually has the knowledge? If they told you they had the knowledge, how do you know they're not lying? Maybe in order to buy time for the person who really does have that information to carry out their plans.
If some-one else told you, how do you know they're telling the truth? Maybe they've been misinformed? Maybe the information that was gleaned from them under torture was only said to make the torture stop? Maybe they're also lying to direct the attention away from the person who really does have the plans. |
04-04-2009, 01:28 PM | #42 | |
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Even if I murdered someone I knew was about to murder someone else, am I guilty of murder? Morally, maybe not, legally .... absolutely. Is France morally justified in persecuting innocent people who are "alleged" to have done something wrong? No idea, if they in fact did nothing wrong, then maybe not. Are they making it legal to do so? Yes, they are. And, where your argument dissolves into a mess of poop is where you use the word "knew" .... try substituting "suspected" rather than knew. Say you suspected that someone might kill 10,000 innocent people .... no proof ... and your suspicions might not even be reasonable. Still good to go on torture? In your view of the world, the Spanish Inquisition must have been one long picnic, with cake and punch. |
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04-04-2009, 01:28 PM | #43 | |
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04-04-2009, 01:57 PM | #44 |
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Our government doesn't bother with the philosophical niceties, they just off-shore their torturing requirements.
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04-04-2009, 02:06 PM | #45 |
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I'd like to think that the people involved in "Extraordinary Rendition" do consider these matters, Sparrow. Is it justifyable to torture someone if you think that they have information that may save the lives of innumerable innocent people? It's a decision that I wouldn't like to have to make. Can you honestly say that there are no circumstances in which such things can be morally justified? I'm not sure that I could do.
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