Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > Writers' Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-27-2013, 10:57 PM   #1
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,306
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
Nature vs. Nurture in Macbeth??

I'm watching a program about MacBeth and one of the points they discuss is did the witches implant MacBeth's impulse to commit murder or did they just give him the final push. It occurred to me that the play is actually asking is it nature or nurture that makes us do things. That's a pretty old theme in writing going at least back as far as the ancient Greeks. In the Oedipus plays everything starts with a prophesy that he will kill his father and marry his mother. Was it pre-ordained that it would happen or was the path set by the oracle telling his parents what would happen. Shakespeare certainly knew how to ask questions that keep people thinking generation after generation.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 06:48 AM   #2
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
I never did understand the point of the witches in Macbeth. They make great characters for spoofs and so on, but their importance/relevance to the play itself? ... It leaves me feeling rather short.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 01-28-2013, 07:09 AM   #3
teh603
Autism Spectrum Disorder
teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
teh603's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,212
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Android Phone
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
I never did understand the point of the witches in Macbeth. They make great characters for spoofs and so on, but their importance/relevance to the play itself? ... It leaves me feeling rather short.
Maybe they make it more entertaining? If they weren't there it'd be a somewhat anvilicious morality play about Klingon promotions.
teh603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 07:18 AM   #4
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Just thinking that perhaps my previous point reveals my opinion that the witches had little to do with how Macbeth behaved. That's not to side with nature or nurture specifically, or not in regard to the witches; anyone that goes looking to mystics for their answers will probably come away exactly what they were looking for in the first place.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 07:24 AM   #5
kennyc
The Dank Side of the Moon
kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
kennyc's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,872
Karma: 118716293
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
To put it another couple of ways, it's about choosing vs following or internal vs external or ...
I think it embodies all those possibilities and that is what good writing can do. It doesn't spell it out precisely, but let's the reader (playgoer) decide based on their own knowledge and experiences of life.
kennyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 01-28-2013, 11:17 AM   #6
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,306
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
To put it another couple of ways, it's about choosing vs following or internal vs external or ...
I think it embodies all those possibilities and that is what good writing can do. It doesn't spell it out precisely, but let's the reader (playgoer) decide based on their own knowledge and experiences of life.
Yep, it's a question that has no one answer as it depends on the reader/viewers point of view. Does Macbeth commit the murders because the witches tell him what they do or does he do it because they help him justify it to himself. That's something each person brings to the play I think and one of the things that keeps it alive. Shakespeare knew how to make a person think. Of course in his day witches weren't fantasy, they were real and could actually cause harm (or at least people believed so).
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 11:21 AM   #7
Penforhire
Wizard
Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,230
Karma: 7145404
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Southern California
Device: Kindle Voyage & iPhone 7+
I blame Lady Macbeth.

And c'mon, if some witches you believed in said you could not be killed (okay, so there was a loophole) you wouldn't act any differently?

I agree it isn't clear cut, nature versus nurture. As a classic tragedy, echoing Greek drama, I imagine there has to be an innate flaw in Macbeth. He has to have an intentional hand in bringing about his downfall. If we accept that it was forces beyond his control then there is no hubris-then-fall, no tragedy, just "a dingo ate my baby!"
Penforhire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 11:22 AM   #8
QuantumIguana
Philosopher
QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
QuantumIguana's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,034
Karma: 18736532
Join Date: Jan 2012
Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2 gen, Kindle Fire 1st Gen, Kindle Touch
He's an ambitious noble. One of the time-honored ways of obtaining a crown is to pluck it from the lifeless head of the previous owner. Whether that is considered to be bad or good depends on your perspective viewed from the perspective of the current owner of that crown. The usurper who failed, there's a villain for you. But the usurper who succeeds, and builds a dynasty, there's a hero. The witches just give Macbeth a little nudge. Macbeth thinks he is the master of his own destiny, but he is the pawn of others.

What you learn is to pay very close attention to the details, because there apparently is no appeal. You need "Birnam Wood" defined, and what it means for that wood to come to Dunsinane. I would say it hardly counts just because some wood came from there. The capital makes all the difference: "Birnam Wood" refers to the forest, while "Birnam wood" would simply refer to some wood that just happened to come from Birnam. But it was an oral contract, which isn't worth the paper it was printed on. And does "of no woman born" really eliminate those born via C-section?

I think that the battle should have stopped right there for an appeal. Set up a little courtroom before things go any further. "Your honor, my client contends that even if this wood did indeed come from Birnam Wood, that fact does not constitute Birnam Wood itself coming to Dunsinane, and in addition, it has not been established that the aforementioned wood in fact had its origin in Dunsinane."

Beware of rhetorical flourishes. There may be loopholes hidden there.

Last edited by QuantumIguana; 01-28-2013 at 11:39 AM.
QuantumIguana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 11:28 AM   #9
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,306
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
And the play is based on a real leader. Of course Shakespeare had to be careful how he wrote it. The real Macbeth killed Duncan on the battlefield and Duncan was trying to invade Macbeth's territory at the time. But history is written by the victors. In the end Macbeth was killed and it's easier to justify what you do to the loser if he is made out as a villain.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 11:49 AM   #10
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
I never did understand the point of the witches in Macbeth. They make great characters for spoofs and so on, but their importance/relevance to the play itself? ... It leaves me feeling rather short.
In the early 17th century, when the play was written, belief in witchcraft was almost universal. You really can't judge the play by the standards of today's society.

The question, though, as to whether the witches made Macbeth a murderer, or whether they simply foretold something that he was going to do anyway is one that's been asked many times. There is no clearcut answer - one can find arguments to support both sides.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 11:52 AM   #11
kennyc
The Dank Side of the Moon
kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
kennyc's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,872
Karma: 118716293
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
...
The question, though, as to whether the witches made Macbeth a murderer, or whether they simply foretold something that he was going to do anyway is one that's been asked many times. There is no clearcut answer - one can find arguments to support both sides.
AhhhhH! Great fiction!
kennyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 01:30 PM   #12
QuantumIguana
Philosopher
QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.QuantumIguana ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
QuantumIguana's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,034
Karma: 18736532
Join Date: Jan 2012
Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2 gen, Kindle Fire 1st Gen, Kindle Touch
If I tell you that the back door and vault of the bank are unlocked, and that the security system is down, I didn't make you a bank robber. I have simply given you an opportunity to reveal your character. You might call the police and warn them. Or you might take advantage of the opportunity to rob the bank and get away with it. Or at least you would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for that little catch you didn't notice.

The witches give Macbeth the opportunity to reveal his character. He didn't have to kill the king. The witches open a door for him, but he was the one who chose to step through that door. Tragedy would be so much shorter if the protagonist simply said "No, thank you," and walked on. But I don't know if many people would want to watch that play.
QuantumIguana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 01:35 PM   #13
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,306
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
In the early 17th century, when the play was written, belief in witchcraft was almost universal. You really can't judge the play by the standards of today's society.

The question, though, as to whether the witches made Macbeth a murderer, or whether they simply foretold something that he was going to do anyway is one that's been asked many times. There is no clearcut answer - one can find arguments to support both sides.
And we still ask the same question today about real murderers. Was it nature or nurture that made Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer, etc. do what they did. It's a question that says more about the questioner than anything else I think. I think that that is one reason why the play has held up so well. It presents us with a reflection of ourselves. Would we do as Macbeth did or not if presented with similar temptations? It touches something deep in the human psyche I think. We're forced to look at ourselves when we look at Macbeth. Lady Macbeth isn't an innocent bystander either. She goads him into going ahead with the plan when he has doubts about doing it, and even plants evidence against another. And she tries to cover for him when his conscience makes him see the ghost of one of his victims. She's a willing even eager accomplice to the crime. It might be closer to the truth to suppose that both nature and nurture play a part in his decision to commit Duncan's murder.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 01:42 PM   #14
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
And yet curiously enough, Mr and Mrs Macbeth are one of the very few truly happy marriages that we find in Shakespeare - a curious anomaly!

But of course, Macbeth wouldn't be the leading character in a tragedy unless he had a flaw in the character (the flaw being ambition in his case, although perhaps Lady Macbeth is the true leader in the plot?).
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 01:45 PM   #15
kennyc
The Dank Side of the Moon
kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kennyc ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
kennyc's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,872
Karma: 118716293
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
and it's never ever 100% nature or nurture but always a combination of the two.
kennyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
bbc nature update 12/10/12 scissors Recipes 0 10-12-2012 03:05 AM
Nature recipe request whitecow Recipes 0 03-13-2012 02:28 PM
BBC Nature Recipe scissors Recipes 0 12-28-2011 04:44 AM
WSJ: Publishers Nurture Rivals to Kindle anurag News 2 05-04-2009 08:28 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:10 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.