Wacom Digitizer sensitivity issues in 800 2.0 Beta and some pictures

sordie · 04-12-2010, 08:14 PM

I believe I finally figured out what is going on with some of the scribble problems. It looks like the pen detection algorithms are a bit sensitive. As such, the software detects the pen as if it is touching the screen, when in fact, it is just above the screen. I am talking hairline above the screen,but not actually touching it. See the first picture attached. The circles in the middle were drawn while the pen was not touching the screen. This seems like a trivial complaint, but it isn't. When cursive writing, such things as crossing the "t"s, and dotting the "i"s involve lifting the pen a hairline and moving it to the correct location (see the extra lines inside 8 and 0. Unfortunately, a lot of times this lifting is not detected, and results in poor looking text. note that my problem with selection zooming was resulting from this as well - I was holding the pen a hairline above the screen while trying to decide where to start my selection, while the algorithm was registering that movement as actual selection.

Also, I have included additional pictures to show pen registration algorithm problems associated with the edges. I repeated the same text over and over to show the issue. Note that around the bottom edge, the text looks elongated,while around the side edges it is compressed (and unreadable). Around the very top it is so compressed that it almost looks like a short wave. But below that it is elongated.

Finally, note how at the top, the lines are faint. Once the page is refreshed,however, they are fully dark (the third image).

PS: My apologies for the poor quality photos - all I have is my phone.

PS2: You may want to consider indicate the scribleable area in PDFs, otherwise around the edges one gets sharp cutoffs which look very odd.

PS3: Given that IREX has been working with WACOM digitizers for so long, at first I was surprised that they are having issues adjusting the sensitivity detection algorithms. Based on posts on the 1000 thread, it looks like they are doing sensitivity adjustments and edge adjustments on that device, so obviously they are really starting from scratch with this code. Best of luck to you guys in getting it right. You are not too far off.

CoolDragon · 04-12-2010, 08:37 PM

I have noticed the change in the digitizer too.

mg2000 · 04-13-2010, 12:04 AM

I have same problem...

Dellaster · 04-13-2010, 12:36 AM

Thank you, sordie, for detailing the problems. I'm experiencing the same things.

Attempting to practice kanji (Chinese characters, Japanese-style) on the page in an instructional PDF has been futile for me. Far too sloppy and
inaccurate to pass even the most generous character recognition with anything beyond the simplest kanji that only have horizontal and vertical strokes. Trying to get the first three strokes of "cat" (the left part of below*) correct, for example, is frustrating. I miss crossing the initial diagonal with the curving downward stroke (it gets offset to the right for some reason) and trying to get that third stroke to touch but not cross the vertical ... good luck.

* 猫

A simulated attempt. Correct kanji on the left, on the right what usually shows up with my first three strokes when I try on the DR800 in the same way I would on paper. I may be bad, but I'm not that bad.

(This is much larger than what I'm actually writing, which is maybe an inch in width for the whole kanji. The offsetting wouldn't be this bad if I did write this large. This is a fake example done in a paint program. Very roughly similar to what happens on the iRex. I hope that's clear.)

Another edit: again, drawing horizontal or vertical isn't bad, but it's like some predictive routine engages when drawing that second downward, curving vertical. As if it anticipates me continuing to draw to the right when instead I'm trying to cut down through the middle of the first stroke.

10-4 · 04-13-2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sordie

The circles in the middle were drawn while the pen was not touching the screen. This seems like a trivial complaint, but it isn't. When cursive writing, such things as crossing the "t"s, and dotting the "i"s involve lifting the pen a hairline and moving it to the correct location (see the extra lines inside 8 and 0. Unfortunately, a lot of times this lifting is not detected, and results in poor looking text.

Did you stir coffee or thee with your stylus or dropped it to the floor?

Drawing must start when the pen (nearly) touches the screen.
A pen soaked in water typical starts drawing about a cm above the screen.
Your digitizer is ok but the problem is in the pen...

Shaggy · 04-13-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sordie

As such, the software detects the pen as if it is touching the screen, when in fact, it is just above the screen. I am talking hairline above the screen,but not actually touching it.

In my limited experience with WACOM technology, this is fairly normal. The digitizer doesn't respond to the physical touch of the pen, but rather to the proximity of the sensor located in the pen. I've always been able to "write" on a WACON screen by holding the pen really close, but not touching, if I wanted to.

I don't know if they have adjusted the sensitivity with the latest firmware, and maybe it's a little more "trigger happy" than before, but I don't think you're ever going to fully eliminate the effect you describe above.

It's important, to help with this, that you calibrate the pen in the exact position/grip/etc that you normally use to write with. I may be wrong, but I believe the calibration routine not only lines the dots up on the screen, but also adjusts for the angle and proximity of the pen.

Drop Bear · 04-13-2010, 11:48 AM

Noticed the same as above on mine aswell. I have used the Intous3 for many years and it is able to detect sensitivities up to 2000 levels. It is clearly not the exact same technology but I'm sure there is room for adjustment. I will also say that the calibration is all over the place. Writing within 1 cm of the edge of screen produces strokes millimetres off and I just have to write blind to avoid over-correcting myself and making notes illegible.

All that said, I still like what you have done and it has made my little dr800 a vastly more usable product. Looking forward to the official patch release.

badbob001 · 04-13-2010, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

In my limited experience with WACOM technology, this is fairly normal. The digitizer doesn't respond to the physical touch of the pen, but rather to the proximity of the sensor located in the pen. I've always been able to "write" on a WACON screen by holding the pen really close, but not touching, if I wanted to.

With WACOM, it can sense the pen even when it's not touching the surface. It makes perfect sense when used in the context of a drawing pad, since you need to be able to visually position the pointer to the right location (hovering) before finally touching the surface to draw. The technology is suppose to be sensitive enough to detect at least a few hundred degrees of pressure. If you can write without touching the surface, then it is a calibration issue. Several Tablet computers and WACOM's own Clintiq LCD/Tablets still work fine under several layers of screen technology so the e-ink shouldn't be a factor.

Since IREX is releasing the 2.0 firmware for both the DR1000 and DR800, it is possible they may have gotten some settings mixed between the two devices. It would be interesting for users of both devices to compare notes.

sordie · 04-13-2010, 11:09 PM

Thanks for your feedback everyone. It looks like I didn't express myself well enough. Everyone is right of course in that the Wacom digitizer is able to detect the pen when it is hovering above the screen. Indeed, on Tablet PCs, in mouse mode, where the pen is used for controlling the cursor, the pen is detected almost an inch away from the screen. In pen mode, however, the pen needs to be much closer to be detected (the sensitivity of the detection algorithm is changed). Essentially,the sensitivity for pen detection needs adjustment on IREX - on the TabletPCs I use, the pen never writes while it is off the screen (in fact it requires a bit of pressure before registering any inking). As a result, the effect is much closer to natural pen, paper combo. IREX does not quite have the detection sensitivity right, and often registers as ink those strokes which were not intended to be recorded as ink. This was simply mypoint. with a little adjustment, I am sure they will get it right.

04-12-2010, 08:14 PM	#1
sordie Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 20 Join Date: Mar 2010 Device: IREX 800SG	Wacom Digitizer sensitivity issues in 800 2.0 Beta and some pictures I believe I finally figured out what is going on with some of the scribble problems. It looks like the pen detection algorithms are a bit sensitive. As such, the software detects the pen as if it is touching the screen, when in fact, it is just above the screen. I am talking hairline above the screen,but not actually touching it. See the first picture attached. The circles in the middle were drawn while the pen was not touching the screen. This seems like a trivial complaint, but it isn't. When cursive writing, such things as crossing the "t"s, and dotting the "i"s involve lifting the pen a hairline and moving it to the correct location (see the extra lines inside 8 and 0. Unfortunately, a lot of times this lifting is not detected, and results in poor looking text. note that my problem with selection zooming was resulting from this as well - I was holding the pen a hairline above the screen while trying to decide where to start my selection, while the algorithm was registering that movement as actual selection. Also, I have included additional pictures to show pen registration algorithm problems associated with the edges. I repeated the same text over and over to show the issue. Note that around the bottom edge, the text looks elongated,while around the side edges it is compressed (and unreadable). Around the very top it is so compressed that it almost looks like a short wave. But below that it is elongated. Finally, note how at the top, the lines are faint. Once the page is refreshed,however, they are fully dark (the third image). PS: My apologies for the poor quality photos - all I have is my phone. PS2: You may want to consider indicate the scribleable area in PDFs, otherwise around the edges one gets sharp cutoffs which look very odd. PS3: Given that IREX has been working with WACOM digitizers for so long, at first I was surprised that they are having issues adjusting the sensitivity detection algorithms. Based on posts on the 1000 thread, it looks like they are doing sensitivity adjustments and edge adjustments on that device, so obviously they are really starting from scratch with this code. Best of luck to you guys in getting it right. You are not too far off. Attached Thumbnails

04-13-2010, 12:36 AM	#4
Dellaster 本の虫 Posts: 242 Karma: 344 Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Device: Kindle3, DXG, Fire · iPad, iPod	Thank you, sordie, for detailing the problems. I'm experiencing the same things. Attempting to practice kanji (Chinese characters, Japanese-style) on the page in an instructional PDF has been futile for me. Far too sloppy and inaccurate to pass even the most generous character recognition with anything beyond the simplest kanji that only have horizontal and vertical strokes. Trying to get the first three strokes of "cat" (the left part of below) correct, for example, is frustrating. I miss crossing the initial diagonal with the curving downward stroke (it gets offset to the right for some reason) and trying to get that third stroke to touch but not cross the vertical ... good luck. 猫 A simulated attempt. Correct kanji on the left, on the right what usually shows up with my first three strokes when I try on the DR800 in the same way I would on paper. I may be bad, but I'm not that bad. (This is much larger than what I'm actually writing, which is maybe an inch in width for the whole kanji. The offsetting wouldn't be this bad if I did write this large. This is a fake example done in a paint program. Very roughly similar to what happens on the iRex. I hope that's clear.) Another edit: again, drawing horizontal or vertical isn't bad, but it's like some predictive routine engages when drawing that second downward, curving vertical. As if it anticipates me continuing to draw to the right when instead I'm trying to cut down through the middle of the first stroke. Last edited by Dellaster; 04-13-2010 at 01:15 AM. Reason: added kanji image

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04-12-2010, 08:37 PM	#2
CoolDragon Addict Posts: 244 Karma: 124 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: none	I have noticed the change in the digitizer too.

04-13-2010, 12:04 AM	#3
mg2000 Junior Member Posts: 6 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2008 Device: Iliad	I have same problem...

04-13-2010, 11:48 AM	#7
Drop Bear Enthusiast Posts: 35 Karma: 46 Join Date: Apr 2010 Device: dr800sg	Noticed the same as above on mine aswell. I have used the Intous3 for many years and it is able to detect sensitivities up to 2000 levels. It is clearly not the exact same technology but I'm sure there is room for adjustment. I will also say that the calibration is all over the place. Writing within 1 cm of the edge of screen produces strokes millimetres off and I just have to write blind to avoid over-correcting myself and making notes illegible. All that said, I still like what you have done and it has made my little dr800 a vastly more usable product. Looking forward to the official patch release.

04-13-2010, 11:09 PM	#9
sordie Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 20 Join Date: Mar 2010 Device: IREX 800SG	Thanks for your feedback everyone. It looks like I didn't express myself well enough. Everyone is right of course in that the Wacom digitizer is able to detect the pen when it is hovering above the screen. Indeed, on Tablet PCs, in mouse mode, where the pen is used for controlling the cursor, the pen is detected almost an inch away from the screen. In pen mode, however, the pen needs to be much closer to be detected (the sensitivity of the detection algorithm is changed). Essentially,the sensitivity for pen detection needs adjustment on IREX - on the TabletPCs I use, the pen never writes while it is off the screen (in fact it requires a bit of pressure before registering any inking). As a result, the effect is much closer to natural pen, paper combo. IREX does not quite have the detection sensitivity right, and often registers as ink those strokes which were not intended to be recorded as ink. This was simply mypoint. with a little adjustment, I am sure they will get it right.

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