Why can I no longer buy books from the UK?

[DawnFalcon]

If you could legally buy the product in the UK, you're fine. If you would be unable to buy the product due to georestrictions, which you are bypassing (with intent or otherwise), then you may have a problem. (The legal opinion I have says in the UK you do, for reference).

Think of it this way - the BBC iPlayer checks to see if your IP is from the UK. If it isn't, then you cannot legally view the iPlayer. If you use a proxy to bypass this, then the copy of the iPlayer content you are viewing is unlicensed, and hence infringing.

The way law now works on electronic transactions means that where you're purchasing from is not that relevant - the transaction location is where *you* are, and hence local law applies (Which is something I think some book companies have not quite grasped when they helped create that situation, and it's not especially in their favour).

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

If you could legally buy the product in the UK, you're fine. If you would be unable to buy the product due to georestrictions, which you are bypassing (with intent or otherwise), then you may have a problem. (The legal opinion I have says in the UK you do, for reference).

The way law now works on electronic transactions means that the law of were you're purchasing from is not that relevant - the transaction location is where *you* are, and hence local law applies (Which is something I think some book companies have not quite grasped when they helped create that situation, and it's not especially in their favour).

This is what I mean I don't believe a contract can render something illegal can it?
The law in the UK says I can buy books from the USA.

Therefore no matter what contract an american publisher makes with an American store. I am not breaking any laws.

the store may be in breach of their contract but also they would not have broken any laws.

The only area I could see an issue is in terms of Tax law and avoidance?

[DawnFalcon]

Actually, tax is an interesting issue. It can be argued that the tax is due on the importer, which if the transaction location is your location...the importer is actually the *seller*. However, that gets turned around again by site terms and agreements, which tend to state you'll pay any relevant tax.

The thing is, copyright law effectively assigns the right to make legal copies, any other copies being unauthorised - with certain exceptions for say transitory copying and the blind and so on. For a copy to be legal, you need to have acquired it in a fully legal fashion. If you bypass georestrictions, then you are bypassing a measure intended to restrict who it legally available to, and hence the copy's unliscenced. (Due to UK computing law, there's also a potential criminal offence there for just that, too - it's pretty broad ranging on what "unauthorised access" really means - it's *probably* non-prosecutable, but that's not been tested!).

The store's legality, well, it probably says they have to take "reasonable measures", which means if you've bypassed those measures, no foul to them. If they did nothing, or say just put a text warning up? Probably not sufficient.

Don't look at me, I didn't write the laws!

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

For a copy to be legal, you need to have acquired it in a fully legal fashion. If you bypass georestrictions, then you are bypassing a measure intended to restrict who it legally available to, and hence the copy's unliscenced. (Due to UK computing law, there's also a potential criminal offence there for just that, too - it's pretty broad ranging on what "unauthorised access" really means - it's *probably* non-prosecutable, but that's not been tested!).

The store's legality, well, it probably says they have to take "reasonable measures", which means if you've bypassed those measures, no foul to them. If they did nothing, or say just put a text warning up? Probably not sufficient.

Don't look at me, I didn't write the laws!

But that's the point geo-restrictions are not a law so by bypassing them you are NOT breaking a law therefore copyright law is completely irrelevant.

I cant see any law that would be broken by the buyer in that transaction.

It is legal to use a proxy
It is legal to buy ebooks from the US
The contract between the publisher and store cannot create a new law.
No existing laws are being breached.

I guess the potential exist for teh book seller or store to try and sue for damages!
But even from what you say I cant see any law breaking.

[DawnFalcon]

The law is this - a copy of something is only legal if you have followed all the rules when you acquired it*. If the site rules say "you may not purchase this from the UK", and you do? That copy is unauthorised. (Note that this is civil law, and it doesn't matter for there being an offence or not even if you did it inadvertently, that only affects the damages involved)

(*If those rules are legal ofc. No "jump off a cliff". But "you must be in x countries to buy it" is fine)

Legally, all that it needs is a notice on a page as to where it can be sold, further restrictions are generally due to contractual obligations on the bookstore.

Note the *purchase* is legal, the actual offence is only when you download the copy in an unauthorised location. So if you bought it from the UK using a proxy, went to America, then downloaded the book? Legal copy - AND because of first sales/exhaustion of rights, that copy is then yours legally.

If you are not thinking bad thoughts about copyright law at this point... (heh)

[Pardoz]

Originally Posted by stustaff

It is legal to use a proxy

My (admittedly exceptionally limited) knowledge of UK law suggests it actually might not be in some cases. Theoretically this could fall under the 'unauthorized access' provisions, since access to the data is only 'authorized' to people in a certain country.

Strictly read, this could mean that somebody in the US attempting to look at a video on the BBC's player is breaking the law, since they're attempting to access data they aren't authorized to have.