Seriously thoughtful Learning a new language

[Jaro]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Jaro, I have been to Slovakia three times this year (work), to Kosice. Most people there seem to speak English very well - you included. It's certainly a lot better than my Slovak!

Yes I have a god dictionary in my mobile.

[Abelturd]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

I have been to Slovakia three times this year (work), to Kosice.

What impression did it leave on you, Slovakia, I mean?
Did you try slivovica?
See, Jaro,there you have your Slovak. I could spill a whole lot more for you, if you like.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Abelturd

What impression did it leave on you, Slovakia, I mean?
Did you try slivovica?

I've only seen Kosice, so can't speak for the rest of the country. I liked Kosice, centre. Most of the surrounding city does seem quite functional, but the centre is really nice - great cathedral, loads of good restaurants, hotel was good. A Slovakian colleague told me before I went that Slovakia has the most beautiful women in the world. Having been there, I couldn't disagree!

I most certainly have tried slivovica - my Slovakian colleagues take me out for a meal in the evenings and it is traditional that we start the meal with a slivovica. Quite enjoy it, but it seems like a drink I wouldn't want to have a lot of for the sake of my health!

[Jaro]

Yes i know, and thanks for your kind words Abelturd.
Its interesting that I have no problems to understand, only when I have to converse its very dificult.But whit a litle slivovica its a lot beter.

[Abelturd]

Originally Posted by Jaro

Yes i know, and thanks for your kind words Abelturd.
Its interesting that I have no problems to understand, only when I have to converse its very dificult.But whit a litle slivovica its a lot beter.

Don't mention it.

It's all a matter of practice, it's the same with English. You wouldn't believe how much my spoken English sucks. That's because I have nowhere to practice it and noone to practice with.

[Verencat]

Jaro, your English is fully understandable, don't worry! I'd also like to welcome you officially on Mobile Read, we're happy you're here!

Abelturd, in my case, speaking three languages is kind of easy - I work with hispanophones and anglophones almost daily, so I have no real trick. Although, when I was learning German, what helped me with the accent was talking aloud to myself (looks more than dumb, but hey, if it works!) and repeating sentences I heard in movies until I though I sounded allright. Otherwise, it's as you feel it!

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

I used to know a bit of French and a bit of Greek, but sadly lack of use has worn away any conversational ability I had in those languages. Although I can still say good <relevant time of day>, a beer/tea please. Also excuse me, thank you and hello.

I can, however, still read some French, some German (which I was never very good at conversationally), and for some reason some Dutch

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by Verencat

Hey! Think of all of us writing in the English forums and fearing to use the wrong word or to make a spelling mistake that can completely change the meaning of what we write! (Each post - despite what everyone might think - takes me forever to write because I re-read 5 times, then spell check, then re-read, post and edit almost every time (suddenly remembering a conversation between Kaz and DGMa about paranoia))
<SNIP>

Verencat, I read and reread my posts several times as well and use a spell checker every time and English is my mother tongue!! I've made so many posts about being a teacher, that I want to make absolutely sure that my grammar and spelling are as correct as I can get them! MJ215 caught me once using "alot" instead of "a lot", and called me on it (as well he should)! It's actually a point of pride that I do my best, though. I would never criticize anyone else's grammar, unless I'm getting paid for it.

Originally Posted by Jaro

I am from slovakia a part in 95 split czekoslovakia. I reading czek (more books). In school i was learning rusian and in TV loking ORF(german). When the socialism ended I lern a little bit english.So I read czek, german, rusian, english but its a hell when i have to speek or write with them and very litle people understand slovak here on the forum.
I like it here anyway.

Jaro, you do a wonderful job with your English posts. I'm very impressed.

[GraceKrispy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The first man who attempted to do a systematic survey of American accents in the early 20th century categorised them on the basis of how people pronounced the three words "marry", "Mary", and "merry". In British English those three words have distinctly different vowel sounds, but in most American accents two of the three - or even all three! - use the same vowel.

Yep, they all sound the same when i saw them! They all have the "air" sound in there.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

As a late teenage, I and a friend used to have grand times when we were in public places, listening to people talking Spanish behind us in lines, and then speaking back and for between us in broken German, which the Spanish speakers didn't know. The sudden silence and nasty looks were priceless. How dare we talk in a language they didn't understand. (Which was what they were doing....)

dh and I had a habit of speaking Navajo to one another in public (especially to figure out tips- he needed help but didn't want the waitress to know what he was asking me about ) Sometimes our conversation gets a bit raunchy and when we went back to the Navajo rez last spring, all it took was one offended look from a grandma for me to realize "whoops! now we are around people who actually understand us!"

I also have a tendency to use Hawaiian with the kids in public, especially if a little 'correction' is needed. we don't see a lot of Hawaiian speakers in public, but sometimes we are surprised when someone speaks to us in Hawaiian. But it's great fun to eavesdrop on Hawaiian speaking public gossipers who assume I don't speak Hawaiian. With three blond, blue-eyed kids, and lighter skin, I don't look like I would speak it.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

That's why my English is a bit better than passable. Though my spelling is still horrible (in any language, especially in Dutch), my understanding of the language is fair. I even dreamt in English when I stayed in the US and couldn't remember half of the Dutch words when I talked to my mother on the phone.

I have that problem transferring from Hawaiian to English. The structure of the Hawaiian language is totally different from English, and the thought is very different as well. it's one thing to speak and converse and live in one language or the other, but it takes a bit more brainpower to convert the English thinking in the Hawaiian thinking and vice versa. Most other languages I'm familiar with in speaking (Norwegian, German, Spanish) have the subject/predicate-- noun/verb thing going on, but Hawaiian (and Navajo) have a totally different structure that truly reflects the cultural differences. After a full day of meetings or teaching in Hawaiian, it's hard to switch back to English. sometimes I find myself struggling for words in my native tongue (English) because the Hawaiian words pop up much quicker.

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

I think the best time to learn a language is as a child (generally speaking.) Some countries offer that option (or it may be mandatory) in the younger school grades. I think that's fantastic. But to my knowledge (which is often lacking) the US still doesn't do that, except in the cases of "English as a second language" to those children in American schools that don't speak English. Seems unfair to use resources to teach it one way and not the other; that is to say to teach foreign speaking children English, but to not teach our English speaking children another language.

I teach in a Hawaiian Immersion school, meaning that all instructions in grades k-4 is given in the Hawaiian language only, and about 45 minutes / day is devoted to English in 5th grade and it increases a bit as you go up. I know there are a few other immersion models out there. There are very very few native Hawaiian speaks (in terms of being born into the language, and that being the primary language in the home); there is the Manaleo (native speakers) contingent that is now very advanced in age and the numbers are quickly dwindling, and there are the children being born now whose parents went through Hawaiian immersion programs growing up and are raising their children from birth on as bilingual, and the numbers are growing, but it's still a struggle.

I totally agree that it's easier to learn another language as a child. I think it's a shame that, in the US, it's far more common to have foreign languages offered first in middle school, if not waiting until high school. I knwo there are some schools around the US that do some form of immersion or partial immersion or something else, but I don't know how many there are. I look at my own kids, and I'm so glad they have the ability to think and express themselves and communicate in two languages, and that, hopefully, they should be able to learn other languages more easily later in life.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

One thing you learn while learning another language, is not only the language, but you will also pick up a bit on the culture. Most often, the scenes depicted in the learning books are about the country the language is from (at least, good study books). But most importantly, you learn that there are other languages, other cultures.

In graduate school, I wrote paper after paper talking about language and culture and the inability to separate the two of them. The books written in Hawaiian are often telling cultural stories. The 'Olelo No'eau (wise sayings) are so much richer in Hawaiian than they are translated to English. They are also a big window into the culture of Hawai'i.

Originally Posted by cassidym

An interesting phenomena I noticed while I lived in Germany (Stuttgart und Berlin) was this:
The more German beer you drink, the better you speak German. Must have something to do with the hops.

Works with Hawaiian too-- any type of beer will do I think it has something to do with relaxing you enough that you let go of your uncertainty and out comes the stuff you really do know, you just couldn't always think of under stress. Fairly early on, I was at a bar with some colleagues who had gone through the 4 year immersion college program, plus had been teaching for probably 15 years in Hawaiian. Quite capable speakers. Having only taken thrice monthly classes for about 14 months before starting my new career as a Hawaiian immersion teacher (essentially mostly self-taught), I was understandably intimidated. After a few beers, I'm told (I didn't experience it this way) I was jabbering on and on pretty fluently in a very loud voice.

Another interesting thing is that my fluency in Hawaiian and my slight knowledge of Navajo are mostly to do with speaking and listening, while my small abilities in German and Norwegian are more to do with reading and writing. I was participating in a Norwegian forum for a while as a good way to review and practice my language skills. Both Hawaiian and Navajo strike me as much more klutzy when written rather than spoken.

This also begs the question : what defines fluency? What makes one fluent? there are plenty of Native English speakers I don't consider fluent in English. Are you automatically fluent in your native language? is fluency defined by your ability speak a second language equally as well as your native language? to speak it enough to be understood? is it just speaking, or does it also have to do with reading and writing?

Sorry so long-winded... language is a bit of a passion of mine....

[GraceKrispy]

Originally Posted by kazbates

Verencat, I read and reread my posts several times as well and use a spell checker every time and English is my mother tongue!! I've made so many posts about being a teacher, that I want to make absolutely sure that my grammar and spelling are as correct as I can get them! MJ215 caught me once using "alot" instead of "a lot", and called me on it (as well he should)! It's actually a point of pride that I do my best, though. I would never criticize anyone else's grammar, unless I'm getting paid for it.

I know! I know I've made typos before (brain moving faster than my fingers), and sometimes, in a mindless error, I have used the wrong form of a word. I hate when I see those and feel obligated to correct them. I am on a teacher board, and I am amazed at how many people misuse words such as they're, their, and there, and your, you're, etc. I would like to think they are simply typos, but I know many of them are not. I am very meticulous with letters home, research papers, etc, but I admit to being a little quick sometimes to hit "post" instead of proofreading super carefully. I'm sure I have a fair amount of transposed letters, and I know my finger isn't as fast on the shift key as I'd like (so some sentences don't get their capital letters).

[rebarnmom]

Originally Posted by kazbates

The language barrier can be very frustrating. My only thought would be that if I were moving to a foreign country where the majority speaks a particular language, I would make every attempt to learn that language. There are many people who move to the US who don't believe they should learn English. Whether it is the "official" language or not, it is the "unofficial" language of the country. I would prefer that my tax dollars not be spent to replace road signs, etc. in multiple languages. I wouldn't expect a non-English speaking country to replace their signs if I moved there.

I would have to agree with your thoughts on this subject Kaz.

I did take 4 years of German, two years in high school and two years in college, but without the opportunity to use it, I can only recognize some words when I hear them and speak only the most basic phrases. I do think that I could pick it back up again fairly easily, if I tried to relearn it though. I was planning on teaching my daughter Spanish and learning it along with her. I purchased the Rosetta Stone software for that purpose. My daughter, her BFF and I just recently took an introductory course in ASL (sign language), which we really enjoyed. It doesn't start up again until the fall, but we will be continuing on with it when it starts back up. If you consider this a language, I am most disappointed that after six years of playing a musical instrument, I can no longer read music anymore. I'm not terribly upset that I can't play the instrument (never did play it very well), but more so that I can't read sheet music.

All that said, I can't wait until they invent the Universal Translator , and as I said in another thread, I truly admire those that can speak multiple languages!

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by Verencat

... my parents listen to tv in English, and they spoke English when they didn't want me to understand something when I was a kid, it drove me crazy, so I worked to change that state of things.

That's funny. I had forgotten about it.

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

When that happens, the US becomes much smaller. And very insignificant.

Originally Posted by kazbates

I don't know about the language thing, but there will never be an official religion unless they change the Constitution and that would take an Act of Congress (which will never happen).

I lived in South Florida for 8 years. The language barrier can be very frustrating. My only thought would be that if I were moving to a foreign country where the majority speaks a particular language, I would make every attempt to learn that language. There are many people who move to the US who don't believe they should learn English. Whether it is the "official" language or not, it is the "unofficial" language of the country. I would prefer that my tax dollars not be spent to replace road signs, etc. in multiple languages. I wouldn't expect a non-English speaking country to replace their signs if I moved there.

Kaz, I think Don is right in some ways and that you are right that a single language should be used in the expression of legal and political communication and infrastructures in a given country.
Canada is a good example of a country with two official languages. So is Belgium, and Switzerland with 3 etc. It works. Slowly but it does. A single official language makes decisions move faster though.

Don is right about the openness of a place where any Earth dweller can feel at home. The US was such a dream for immigrants. Look at the E.U. for instance, countries are small so your neighbours are right next to you. The French learn some German, some Spanish, Flemmish etc. It is the only way of keeping an openness to the rest out there. If you go somewhere around the planet in lets say a country that despises the place you come from and you speak to someone in your language only, you will not be accepted and may be outright rejected. Learn the language before you go there and speak to the same person in his own tongue and you will be respected, always. It is a matter of respect, an apology to the culture, ways and traditions of that other. Respect calls for respect. This is the simplest of courtesy. You can not close yourself in so tightly since travel and internet have bridged the Island of America so completely with the rest of the world. We are linked, whatever inconvenience it may cause. Go with the flow. I do and I'm happy about it. Now I'd like to learn Spanish and Japanese and maybe Arabic...

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by rebarnmom

I would have to agree with your thoughts on this subject Kaz.

I did take 4 years of German, two years in high school and two years in college, but without the opportunity to use it, I can only recognize some words when I hear them and speak only the most basic phrases. I do think that I could pick it back up again fairly easily, if I tried to relearn it though. I was planning on teaching my daughter Spanish and learning it along with her. I purchased the Rosetta Stone software for that purpose. My daughter, her BFF and I just recently took an introductory course in ASL (sign language), which we really enjoyed. It doesn't start up again until the fall, but we will be continuing on with it when it starts back up. If you consider this a language, I am most disappointed that after six years of playing a musical instrument, I can no longer read music anymore. I'm not terribly upset that I can't play the instrument (never did play it very well), but more so that I can't read sheet music.

All that said, I can't wait until they invent the Universal Translator , and as I said in another thread, I truly admire those that can speak multiple languages!

Please do keep us informed on how that Rosetta Stone system works for you and your daughter. I would love to hear someone's personal opinion through actual use.

Most definitely I would consider ASL a language. I would consider it a very useful one even for non-hearing impaired people to use between themselves to communicate when necessary in places where voices (even whispers) may disturb others, such as libraries, movie theaters, stage plays, symphony performances, etc.

Yes, the Universal Translator. One of those things that are waaay overdue.

[rebarnmom]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

Please do keep us informed on how that Rosetta Stone system works for you and your daughter. I would love to hear someone's personal opinion through actual use.

Most definitely I would consider ASL a language. I would consider it a very useful one even for non-hearing impaired people to use between themselves to communicate when necessary in places where voices (even whispers) may disturb others, such as libraries, movie theaters, stage plays, symphony performances, etc.

Yes, the Universal Translator. One of those things that are waaay overdue.

Actually I was referring to reading music as a form of language.

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by rebarnmom

Actually I was referring to reading music as a form of language.

Ooohhhh. Didn't read that right. Gotcha.

Yeh, that too. Well, playing music, yes. Singing music, yes. Reading music . . . guess it depends on how many words and sentences you can make out of EGBDFACE, sharp, flat, clef . . . you get my drift. Never mind. It's getting late and I'm getting stupid.

Carry on.