Publisher Fonts option not shown when using send to Kindle

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Charles Seper has this to say on the subject:

If this was true yesterday, it isn't true today. I just tried it and monospace works all by its lonesome. This is what works for monospace:

font-family: monospace;
font-family: 'Courier New', Courier, monospace

These do NOT work:

font-family: 'Courier New', monospace
font-family: Courier, monospace

As to heading fonts, they've been very hit and miss for a long time now. Some fonts work, others don't. And some only work if you list them in a specific way. My way of making helvetica still works fine:

font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif

Specifying Arial doesn't:

font-family: Arial, sans-serif

I think what you're seeing is a series a policies that try to throw out font rules that look like they were automatically blown in by Microsoft Word. You probably can't realistically ship an embedded copy of Helvetica or Arial, so listing it by itself in a font declaration doesn't make a lot of sense. Thus, the only way such rules would likely end up in a submission would be if somebody just let Word spew its awful HTML.

Chances are, if you avoid the stock Windows fonts, you'll be fine.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

I think what you're seeing is a series a policies that try to throw out font rules that look like they were automatically blown in by Microsoft Word. You probably can't realistically ship an embedded copy of Helvetica or Arial, so listing it by itself in a font declaration doesn't make a lot of sense.

Well...one CAN. Whether or not this is a smart thing to do, sans licensing, is an entirely different discussion.

I had a prospective client this week, whom I believe just left us to try somewhere else, because she wanted a 10-page sample of her client's book (okay...), which she had produced in PDF from Quark (umhmmm), with more than 40 faces. I think, IIRC, it was 8-10 families, total of just under 40 faces, 3 families being Helvetica Neue 1, 2 and 3, and I actually forget most of the rest. She wanted to know what would happen to all her careful kerning, font manipulation, etc., if we "switched" to open source fonts? I had to tell her that it mattered nary a jot what fonts we used; all the kerning, etc., was gone and soon forgotten, in an eBook. She sent the files in .bins, and I told her that wanting us to make a 10-page sample, from a PDF in the first place (so, don't forget: for us, that's all scan, OCR, proofing, yadda), PLUS add in 40 fonts for testing that, in addition to THAT work, meant I had to individually convert EACH ONE into a TTF...sorry, that's just too much to ask for an unpaid sample. That's crazy talk. I pointed out that it was unlikely that she was going to want to license the likes of HN, anyway, given that it's $70 a face (not family!), per book. She wanted to know WHY she had to license it, when she had "had them for ages."

I 'splained all about font redistribution, etc. I don't think she's emailed back since. Of course, it's likely that she can find someone less...careful about the font licensing, but it will indeed surprise me if she can find someone who can make all 40 of those fonts work in that damned book, who ALSO won't care about the licensing, as there's so few of us around that WILL work with fonts in the first place. (Far easier to tell people that they just won't work, or that Amazon won't "allow" Font X because Company Y owns it).

Thus, the only way such rules would likely end up in a submission would be if somebody just let Word spew its awful HTML.

Chances are, if you avoid the stock Windows fonts, you'll be fine.

Y'know, it doesn't really make sense, though. You can't carry fonts in a Word file, not at the KDP. Even if you "embed" them, it doesn't work. So...it's not like just calling Arial in a Word file would do something auto-magical. You'd still have to either embed the font, or call it from the firmware. What IS odd is that even calling Arial, on a Kindle device that HAS it, from the firmware isn't all that reliable, either. Now, THAT is odd. I've also run into span limits with Arial, which I find really interesting. (We've discussed that somewhere else on MR, and I remember not where.)

There's simply a lot that goes on in the PW and pre-PW that we don't know, isn't document, and the Big A isn't telling. To use a modern-day saying, "it is what it is." We fleas that abide on the ass of the elephant simply have to try to NOT steer the elephant. (Although, amazingly: through sheer nagger-y, I HAVE convinced Amazon to do something. More soon on my blog!!)

Hitch

[AppleTard]

Hi, I'm sorry to resurrect this thread, but I thought it'd be better.

I've been using Calibre to create dual-mobi files for a while, in order to send KF8 files through the "Send to Kindle" app. When I download the book on my Kindle Voyager, it comes as an azw3 file.

The major issue with this approach (other than the missing covers) is that whatever Amazon seems to engage in some post-processing, and removes all "font-family" information. The problem is not with Calibre (I've inspected the file I sent, and the azw3 downloaded on the Kindle). I don't use embedded fonts or anything, just the occasional monospaced font.

Is this a known issue still, or am I doing something wrong?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AppleTard

Hi, I'm sorry to resurrect this thread, but I thought it'd be better.

I've been using Calibre to create dual-mobi files for a while, in order to send KF8 files through the "Send to Kindle" app. When I download the book on my Kindle Voyager, it comes as an azw3 file.

The major issue with this approach (other than the missing covers) is that whatever Amazon seems to engage in some post-processing, and removes all "font-family" information. The problem is not with Calibre (I've inspected the file I sent, and the azw3 downloaded on the Kindle). I don't use embedded fonts or anything, just the occasional monospaced font.

Is this a known issue still, or am I doing something wrong?

Well, I'm really not quite sure what you're doing, as I don't use Calibre. I know that you cannot load an AZW3 file at the KDP; don't really understand if you're sideloading the file--the only way I know of to get an AZW3 file from Calibre on a Kindle--or if you only think you are, and you're really sending the MOBI (effectively, a PRC file, non-dual MOBI) to the Kindle e-mail system, which then basically runs it through the KDP (like), and what you get out says it's an AZW3, but it's really a MOBI (prc) which doesn't support fonts.

Can you be more explicit? Here's what I can tell you: even if you're doing it right, most folks will have their fonts stripped out at the KDP. Simply building files the usual way will result in stripped fonts. I don't think, from what you've described, that you are doing this the right way, as you can't load a dual-mobi made by Calibre at the KDP, as AZW/AZW3 isn't an acceptable upload format. So, I'm not comprehending a step here (due to my non-use of Calibre for conversion/loading). If you make it clearer, perhaps I can help.

Please clarify?

Hitch

[AppleTard]

Okay, let me explain exactly what I'm doing.

I'm using Calibre to convert an HTML file to Mobi, using the option to give me a dual Mobi file (it generates a .mobi file). Then I use the "Send to Kindle" app in order to upload the file to Amazon cloud, and make it available on all my devices (the main advantage of using this process, specially since it also syncs your location and everything).

BTW, I know that you can't send a calibre-generated azw3 file through Amazon's app, that's why I have to generate the dual mobi.

From my Kindle Voyager, I download the file from the cloud. Since the Voyage is KF8-compatible, that's the format Amazon sends to my device. And at this point, the font-family information is stripped, thus losing my monospace formatting.

If I use Calibre to create an old-format Mobi (KF7, I think?), and send it through the app, the font-family information is not stripped, and I get a properly formatted file. However, I lose the KF8 features.

EDIT: Amazon's process is truly byzantine. I tried using Kindlegen to generate a mobi file from the HTML source. I sent the resulting mobi through the app, and it stripped the font-family. Then I used Calibre to convert the HTML to an ePub, and then ran that ePub on Kindlegen. Uploaded it and, presto! No stripped fonts. Anyway, this process is too cumbersome, and I have no idea why it works...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AppleTard

Okay, let me explain exactly what I'm doing.

I'm using Calibre to convert an HTML file to Mobi, using the option to give me a dual Mobi file (it generates a .mobi file). Then I use the "Send to Kindle" app in order to upload the file to Amazon cloud, and make it available on all my devices (the main advantage of using this process, specially since it also syncs your location and everything).

As far as I know, the only dual-mobi that is created by Calibre is the AZW3. The "mobi" is KF7, which has no KF7 features, nor font embedding, etc. Only the KF8 "mobi" (in Calibre-speak, the AZW3) has the 3 internal files--the source, the KF7 and the KF8. That's why the "mobi" file generated by Calibre will upload at Amazon (KF7) and the AZW3 won't; because the formatting is simpler, and less likely to incur issues. Above and beyond the format incompatibility, that is. Now, as I said previously--NOT a Calibre expert, but that's been my understanding. So, from the get-go, I'm not clear on what you're doing, because what you're saying is not in agreement with my understanding. I thought that the AZW3 is the KF8, with the multiple-files inisde the MOBI and the KF8 features; and the MOBI is simply essentially a PRC file. No?

Unless, when YOU say, "Dual MOBI," you mean the AZW3? But...that can't be, because you can't be emailing that successfully to the Kindle email address. Hmph.

BTW, I know that you can't send a calibre-generated azw3 file through Amazon's app, that's why I have to generate the dual mobi.

Yeah, which is where my comprehension goes south, the "Calibre-mobi as dual mobi" thing.

From my Kindle Voyager, I download the file from the cloud. Since the Voyage is KF8-compatible, that's the format Amazon sends to my device. And at this point, the font-family information is stripped, thus losing my monospace formatting.

Sorry, which "cloud?" You mean, the storage for your Kindle account, as though it's a document? So, you're using the Amazon email system, sending it out as a DOC (this is how the Amazon system sees it--as a personal doc, not a book), and then you're downloading it either via USB or..? I don't believe that you're getting a KF8 mobi.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to say I'm likely wrong--hopefully Kevin or one of the others will clarify what the MOBI is that's being built, but I thought that unless you directly side-loaded the AZW3 from Calibre, via Calibre, to a Kindle device--that once you put Amazon in the middle-all you get is a KF7 mobi, effectively, a PRC file. Which would mean no fonts, no advanced formatting.

If I use Calibre to create an old-format Mobi (KF7, I think?), and send it through the app, the font-family information is not stripped, and I get a properly formatted file. However, I lose the KF8 features.

Well, don't see how that can be, either, because KF7 can't/doesn't carry font information. Can't embed fonts, for MOBI/KF7. Did you try to call a particular font, from the CSS/HTML, that is already on the Voyage? Or...? Can you give us a screenshot of the font-enabled MOBI (KF7 mobi) that you're loading to the Voyage that's retaining fonts?

EDIT: Amazon's process is truly byzantine. I tried using Kindlegen to generate a mobi file from the HTML source. I sent the resulting mobi through the app, and it stripped the font-family. Then I used Calibre to convert the HTML to an ePub, and then ran that ePub on Kindlegen. Uploaded it and, presto! No stripped fonts. Anyway, this process is too cumbersome, and I have no idea why it works...

The KDP frequently, especially since April, strips fonts. It's a known issue. Amazon opened Pandora's box when they enabled fonts through KF8 in the first place, and they've been dialing it back ever since. It's not really byzantine; but it's hard to keep up with if you don't do it every day.

Anyway--I'm going to wait for one of the Calibre-literati to jump in here, because my understanding is that you literally can't be doing what you're doing, so I must be mistaken.

Hitch

[AppleTard]

Originally Posted by Hitch

As far as I know, the only dual-mobi that is created by Calibre is the AZW3. The "mobi" is KF7, which has no KF7 features, nor font embedding, etc. Only the KF8 "mobi" (in Calibre-speak, the AZW3) has the 3 internal files--the source, the KF7 and the KF8. That's why the "mobi" file generated by Calibre will upload at Amazon (KF7) and the AZW3 won't; because the formatting is simpler, and less likely to incur issues. Above and beyond the format incompatibility, that is. Now, as I said previously--NOT a Calibre expert, but that's been my understanding. So, from the get-go, I'm not clear on what you're doing, because what you're saying is not in agreement with my understanding. I thought that the AZW3 is the KF8, with the multiple-files inisde the MOBI and the KF8 features; and the MOBI is simply essentially a PRC file. No?

Calibre offers an option when to generate a "dual" mobi, with the mobi extension. From the Calibre tooltip:

By default calibre generates MOBI files that contain the old MOBI 6 format. This format is compatible with all devices. However, by changing this setting, you can tell calibre to generate MOBI files that contain both MOBI 6 and the new KF8 format, or only the new KF8 format. KF8 has more features than MOBI 6, but only works with newer Kindles.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Sorry, which "cloud?" You mean, the storage for your Kindle account, as though it's a document? So, you're using the Amazon email system, sending it out as a DOC (this is how the Amazon system sees it--as a personal doc, not a book), and then you're downloading it either via USB or..? I don't believe that you're getting a KF8 mobi.

I mean Amazon's whispersync - my files are uploaded as personal documents. Then I use the "cloud" option on the Kindle, and it downloads an azw3 file. It's true, I guarantee. You can easily replicate this behavior using calibre and a new-ish Kindle.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well, don't see how that can be, either, because KF7 can't/doesn't carry font information. Can't embed fonts, for MOBI/KF7. Did you try to call a particular font, from the CSS/HTML, that is already on the Voyage? Or...? Can you give us a screenshot of the font-enabled MOBI (KF7 mobi) that you're loading to the Voyage that's retaining fonts?

I didn't make myself clear: I'm not embedding any fonts, just formatting some paragraphs using a monospaced font, using the font-family:"courier"; property.

Originally Posted by Hitch

The KDP frequently, especially since April, strips fonts. It's a known issue. Amazon opened Pandora's box when they enabled fonts through KF8 in the first place, and they've been dialing it back ever since. It's not really byzantine; but it's hard to keep up with if you don't do it every day.

It really is byzantine, and I work for the government, so that's saying something

Come on html => calibre_epub => kindlegen => send_to_kindle works; html => kindlegen => send_to_kindle doesn't. Kafka would be proud.

[eschwartz]

@Hitch -- like @AppleTard says, calibre supports dual-MOBI just like Kindlegen.

When we say dual-MOBI, we actually mean it.
Similar output to Kindlegen, as in a file that has both KF8 and mobi7 sections, for compatibility with new and old devices.

calibre supports:

• AZW3 -- KF8
• MOBI -- mobi7
• MOBI -- dual-MOBI with mobi7 && KF8 sections

#3 is an (advanced) setting in Preferences ==> Conversion ==> Output Options ==> MOBI Output

Usually people don't bother to use it, as the only real reason to create a dual-MOBI is for KDP uploads and you should be using kindlegen if you want Amazon to accept it, but someone recently (past year or so?) discovered that Amazon's PDOC service now accepts dual-MOBI in addition to old-MOBI.

Result: new devices download an AZW3-formatted ebook, almost as though it were a "real" book. i.e. sold in the Kindle store.
The old way (email a plain-old MOBI and get one back) works too.


As you say, it probably uses the same backend as KDP although it is far more forgiving of calibre conversions, for unidentified reasons.
So it makes sense that the font issues in KDP would affect PDOCs as well.

---

Amazon has continued their trend of having a buggy backend. PDOCs that make use of this hacky route to get delivered as AZW3 don't download their covers. MOBI works fine of course.

Almost makes you ask WHY THE %#*@(&*^$ they decided all covers must be downloaded from their servers rather than extracted from the ebook file (at least as a freaking fallback )!!!

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

[*]MOBI -- dual-MOBI with mobi7 && KF8 sections

It's not a dual-Mobi format as KF8 is not a Mobi format. It's completely different. KF8 is Kindle Format 8. Mobi is a format that does not use CSS in the eBook. KF8 does use CSS. If KF8 was a Mobi format, then Amazon would be calling it Mobi8. The correct term is dual-format eBook (If I am incorrect, someone please tell me. But I am not incorrect about dual-Mobi being incorrect)

Don't go deleting this post just because you disagree. I'm just pointing out that dual-Mobi is an incorrect term.

[AppleTard]

Alrigt, I solved the problem to my satisfaction. In hindsight I should have tried this first, but I'm too dumb.

I generate the HTML using Word's HTML, filtered option, so the output includes all those awful Mso tags, full of "font-family" properties.

I got rid of ALL the font-family properties, except for my monospaced style, which I changed from "Courier New" to monospace. Converted the updated HTML file to dual-format ebook (HT to JSWolf), sent it through Send to Kindle, and... Success! Nice monospaced font (I tried setting a style to a sans-serif font, and it worked too).

[eschwartz]

calibre has a very nice DOCX converter that is far cleaner than using filtered HTML, I suggest you use that.

I don't know if the font-families will still be there, but at least it would look nicer when you try editing it.



@Jon -- you are disagreeing with pretty much the whole world, sorry.
Go ride your hobby horse over to the Kobo forum, why don't you?
Not sure why you keep coming over to the Kindle and Kindle format forums just to pick fights with people...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AppleTard

Alrigt, I solved the problem to my satisfaction. In hindsight I should have tried this first, but I'm too dumb.

I generate the HTML using Word's HTML, filtered option, so the output includes all those awful Mso tags, full of "font-family" properties.

I got rid of ALL the font-family properties, except for my monospaced style, which I changed from "Courier New" to monospace. Converted the updated HTML file to dual-format ebook (HT to JSWolf), sent it through Send to Kindle, and... Success! Nice monospaced font (I tried setting a style to a sans-serif font, and it worked too).

That's because MONOSPACE works in any type of Kindle output. KF7, KF8, etc. That's not an "embedded font." You simply call the monospace font, and it works. That's why you can use/see monospace in a PRC/KF7 "mobi."

(Really: if Calibre now has two "types" of files called MOBI, and an AZW3 file, you C guys need to come up with different names. No offense, but that's daft. yes, I know that Amazon calls both a KF7 and a KF8-built file "mobi," but really--do you need to ADD to the confusion? At least during running KG, Amazon calls the KF7 "PRC." How do any of you have any idea what TYPE of "mobi" you built, if you can get a faux-Kindlegen-MOBI (dual) or a KF7 "mobi" (f/k/a PRC), with the same damn file extension? Wouldn't it make more sense to call the PRC, PRC, which can be renamed to MOBI, or something like that?)

Sheesh. All this, and the font isn't even embedded. Which--this slays me--is the ONLY reason that it's working when loaded via the KDP--because it's simply monospaced, which has been supported since K2.

And my "sheeshing" isn't aimed at the questioner--it's the entire "who's on first, what's on second-ness" of the discussion. URGHGHG.

Also: just 'cuz--in this instance, y'know, Wolfie's right. Or, at least, he's not completely wrong. Pedantic, yes. But not totally wrong about KF8 <> MOBI, really. And when we all refuse to be specific, see what happens? We end up with daft discussions like this one.

Hitch

[Notjohn]

Hitch, is that why the Send to Kindle app will dispatch a Calibre-generated "mobi" to my Fire tablet, but not a Calibre-generated AZW3?

(Sometimes my library offers a book in digital format only. I use Calibre to convert the epub so I can read it on the tablet instead of tiring my neck at the computer screen.)

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

(Really: if Calibre now has two "types" of files called MOBI, and an AZW3 file, you C guys need to come up with different names. No offense, but that's daft. yes, I know that Amazon calls both a KF7 and a KF8-built file "mobi," but really--do you need to ADD to the confusion? At least during running KG, Amazon calls the KF7 "PRC." How do any of you have any idea what TYPE of "mobi" you built, if you can get a faux-Kindlegen-MOBI (dual) or a KF7 "mobi" (f/k/a PRC), with the same damn file extension? Wouldn't it make more sense to call the PRC, PRC, which can be renamed to MOBI, or something like that?)

Maybe.

But calibre is only following Amazon's lead -- Amazon called it a .mobi file, first -- for all that they emit "prc" in the log.

I'll bet you the real reason it says PRC in the log is not because Amazon was trying to be less confusing, but simply because no one ever thought to update the string since the days when they were creating actual .prc files for PalmOS.

Sense be darned.



calibre's logs will (should) tell you that a dual-MOBI ("PRC" if it makes you happy) was created, which would be just as helpful to the average user as kindlegen's logs.

Generally you know which one you are making, because you have to specifically dive into the guts of calibre's configuration in order to get a dual-MOBI. At that point, I start expecting people to know what they are doing (which may be unrealistic of me ).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

@Jon -- you are disagreeing with pretty much the whole world, sorry.
Go ride your hobby horse over to the Kobo forum, why don't you?
Not sure why you keep coming over to the Kindle and Kindle format forums just to pick fights with people...

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm trying to point out that the term dual-Mobi is incorrect because KF8 is not Mobi. I would point out the same if it had been in the Kobo forum, Sony forum, or whichever. Incorrect is incorrect.

If you think I am incorrect, please point out how KF8 is Mobi. I would like to know. I would also like to know where Amazon calls this dual eBook file a dual-Mobi and also where Amazon calls KF8 Mobi.