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Old 04-26-2015, 04:09 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by mrscoach View Post
I said that others paid for the use of Goebel's diary excerpts because the original artical that started this thread stated such. Have I looked it up to find who has? No, I haven't, because I don't care enough to put the effort in because it really doesn't matter. There is a copyright holder and RH refuses to pay for use of the work. The rest is a smokescreen.
Yup.

And it is a proven point that releasing excerpts from the diaries is damaging to the heirs.

Why would families of similar figures not destroy such documents if copyright is abrogated?
Is forcing the destruction of such documents by family members to become a matter of course action beneficial to the study of world events, or would it be a hindrance?

Last edited by Phogg; 04-26-2015 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 04-26-2015, 05:28 PM   #77
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In this case I think it is actually good for the diaries to be published or referred to in academic literature.
I think that the diaries have already been published, so researchers have access to them.
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Old 04-26-2015, 05:43 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Phogg View Post
Why would families of similar figures not destroy such documents if copyright is abrogated?

In my country, the United States, we have a "fair use" doctrine protecting biographers from having to worry about copyrights on the quotations they use. And yet, our archives are filled with diaries of famous people.

Authors and publishers in Germany don't normally pay for quotations. But because the law there isn't as clearly in favor of serious nonfiction, there's more opening for the child of a cabinet member, Nazi or otherwise, to seek compensation.

I'm not rah-rah US, in general. But on this one issue, we have it right, as explained here:

[Link with affiliate tag deleted - MODERATOR]

EDITED: Sorry about that. To give credit where due, the author of the following quotation is Mike Masnick, and the website I found it on is TechDirt.com.

Quote:
Tragically for both Germany and the UK, neither have fair use. The UK does have a narrowly targeted "fair dealing" concept that likely does not cover this kind of scholarly publication.

Yet, this seems to show just why fair use is such an important concept. Being able to have academic experts properly quote historical source material in writing up biographies and other analyses of historical events and people seems like a no brainer for anyone hoping to properly study and record history. Using copyright to try to lock up such information (or to put a tollbooth on it) only serves to massively limit the ability of our society to accurately study and learn from history -- especially history as tragic as Nazi Germany.

Last edited by SteveEisenberg; 04-27-2015 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 04-26-2015, 06:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg View Post
In my country, the United States, we have a "fair use" doctrine protecting biographers from having to worry about copyrights on the quotations they use. And yet, our archives are filled with diaries of famous people.

Authors and publishers in Germany don't normally pay for quotations. But because the law there isn't as clearly in favor of serious nonfiction, there's more opening for the child of a cabinet member, Nazi or otherwise, to seek compensation.

I'm not rah-rah US, in general. But on this one issue, we have it right, as explained here:

[Link with affiliate tag deleted - MODERATOR]
Why did you quote my question, and then proceed to make a long winded statement entirely unrelated to my question?

Last edited by Dr. Drib; 04-27-2015 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 04-26-2015, 06:38 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Phogg View Post
Why did you quote my question, and then proceed to make a long winded statement entirely unrelated to my question?
In this case the agreement was for a 1% of the net profits so there is no burden to the biographers. They don't have to pay for quotations. The publisher would only have to share a small percentage of the profits, if they are lucky enough to have one.

[see I can do it too]
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:19 AM   #81
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I'm continually baffled by the modern assertion that doing something bad is bad, but giving the money to charity makes it acceptable.
I think the part I'd find reprehensible is the notion that any money paid for the rights might in any way benefit those that may possibly be considered connected to hate groups. I find nothing innately reprehensible about the publishing of history or commentary concerning events, as long as in all cases we understand that the victors write history, though I do find transparently trying to reneg on an agreement based on having recently grown a sense of morals a bit spotty...

Personally, one might hope that the funds would go toward making the world a better place considering the connection the author of the original memoirs had with making it a far worse place. Call it my crazy notion of karmic balance.
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:55 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TechniSol View Post
I'm not in the mood for BS, legal or otherwise, at the moment.

I personally think it reprehensible that RH and it's author should have originally made any arrangement not based on the notion of the blood money(let's call a shovel a shovel) going to a charity directly beneficial to the descendants of the people harmed by the actions of the original author and the regime he represented or better yet a charity devoted to preventing such abuses of power worldwide ala Amnesty International, etc. This whole notion of reconsidering paying for something they originally agreed to, now on moral grounds, merely stinks of being self serving and, if possible, makes them look even worse.

I hope the judge or ruling body, etc. will find a way to employ common sense within the boundaries of the law and force the redirection of the funds to a beneficial purpose -failing that, I hope they force RH to pay and shame the planned recipients into doing the same, applying it to a humanitarian purpose.
Rubbish, the current holders of the copyright have (to the best of my knowledge) done nothing wrong, so why can the randy penguin profit from this book but not them?
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Old 04-27-2015, 11:32 AM   #83
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Obviously, because they are evil Germans.
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Old 04-28-2015, 10:38 AM   #84
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I'm not supporting RH, but I'm not supporting the families of Nazis either...

Considering just where the income would be coming from, the memoirs of a huge cog in the Nazi War Machine and what they were responsible for, I'd prefer no one even possibly connected to that Evil Empire profit. While you may wish to contribute to those who would like to enslave all in their paths, I'll pass on the funding drive. If you can call money coming from the recounting of the heinous acts of a man who was involved in deeds so base that he eventually murdered his entire family to likely avoid their paying the consequences of them or revealing further shame, anything but blood money you're better at sophistry than I am.
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Old 04-28-2015, 11:07 AM   #85
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I had a go at identifying the copyright owner, and it depends. Goebbels had his diaries microfilmed (yes, in the early 1940s) and these were seized by the Russians in 1945, and largely forgotten until the 1990s when a western researcher tracked them down. They formed the source for the published German language edition. The complete set of published diaries, by the way, is seriously huge (29 fat volumes).

Various bits of it have been translated into English and published in the US and the UK. If I were the translator, and anyone wanted to lift chunks out of the English language edition, representing several years' of my work, for free, I'd certainly be seeking out m'learned friends.

As to the copyright owner of the German language edition, it seems to have been commissioned by the German government because of its enormous historical wealth of inside reports on meetings, conferences, conversations, and so on. It sounds like a government to government deal to me (Germany-Russia) but details are obscure.

Oddly enough, according to Mr Wiki and Mr Pedia, sections of his diaries were published in English well before that, from the surviving actual books, a very incomplete set, which had been stored in the Reich Chancellery and captured as well.

So while the legal copyright holder of the German text is obscure, but almost certainly Government, the translators have a perfectly valid and proper reason to beef if a large percentage of the projected book is, as some seem to think, extracts from the translations. (After all, the English language translation copyrights do not expire for many years yet.)

There's no doubt that the diaries are of great value to historians and researchers of the Nazi period. But they are never going to be best-sellers and make anyone a fortune in royalties. More than likely the main return to owners and translators is the payments for extracts.

Very interesting debate so far, anyway.
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Old 04-29-2015, 08:25 PM   #86
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Royalties claim over Nazi’s writings raises fears for scholarship


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Many historians have hitherto assumed that no such claims would be made. It had never occurred to Saul Friedländer, emeritus professor of history at the University of California, Los Angeles – and one of the leading authorities on the Holocaust – to “ask for an authorisation from the Goebbels estate to quote from his diaries”.

Dan Stone, professor of modern history at Royal Holloway, said that he had “ordinarily simply assume[d] that published works and papers of Nazis are citable without any copyright issues. I regularly cite works by Nazi race theorists, some better known than others, in my work, and I do so on the assumption that there are no copyright issues.”

All this may now be set to change.
One factoid I've found: Random House did go through something like this before, in the United States, and lost. But then the US Congress strengthened fair use protections:

Salinger v. Random House

Last edited by SteveEisenberg; 04-29-2015 at 08:28 PM.
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