Applying the concept of Bitcoin in eBooks

[jhowell]

I can see the potential usefulness of a system that works somewhat like Bitcoin, but which manages digital media licenses instead of money. It would allow for such things as proof of ownership of a license and potentially controlled transfer of licenses between individuals.

It could also allow the separation of media delivery from purchase. For example, you could purchase a license for a book or movie from a seller and then later submit that license to a data provider to deliver that media to you on demand for a small fee. So that for example you could read your book on any device that supports it without having to do the work of format shifting and copying yourself. The convenience might go a long way toward combatting piracy.

Just some thoughts. I doubt this will ever happen.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by webroot

well it is hard to say something like that about future ( impossibly workable drm) few years back people would have laughed at when somebody talked of bitcoin, it will be upon nventors and their desire that will shape future .

The issue with unbreakable DRM is that it is a flawed concept on a technical level, and the people who want it are not the people who have to make it.

Bitcoin was never inconceivable on a technical level, and people would only have laughed because they couldn't imagine the infrastructure and user opt-in, and because until there is an actual working implementation nothing will change.


You are comparing apples to oranges.

if drm go then how would publisher or author make living?

I don't know, why don't you ask all the authors who are currently making a living without DRM?
Why don't you ask the publishers who don't use DRM?

• Baen has never used DRM.
• Tor ditched DRM years ago, and are on record saying that they have not noticed any decrease in sales as a result.

consider when print edition become a minority and i am not talking only about cheap titles.

What the frack does that have to do with anything?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

DRM is generally not a problem if a format is universal. Eg, the overwhelming majority of people aren't inconvenienced by DRM on DVDs, because any DVD can be played on any DVD player (few people buy "out of region" DVDs, and those who do, generally know what they're doing). The reason it's an issue for eBooks is the fact that different devices use different book formats.

And consequently, the DRM is as useful as a sticker saying "please don't do anything with this that we won't like".

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by webroot

You said it, and if the file format and decryption procedure gets universal/ standardized then it makes life easy for hackers to build a crack. So what do you think there is no possibility of workable drm, can't we have a working system in future similar to successful ecommerce.

Again, it is about the technical merits of DRM. I suggest you read up on the analog hole,, which is the ultimate recourse in such matters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog...olitical_views

What i am saying is drm has to be there as long as problem exist.

There is no problem.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And consequently, the DRM is as useful as a sticker saying "please don't do anything with this that we won't like".

I'm afraid I don't agree with you. The DRM on DVDs does what it's supposed to, which is to prevent people making casual copies of commercial DVDs. Of course there are ways around this for the determined person, but, nonetheless, I think it serves a purpose that's beneficial to the publisher, and doesn't inconvenience the typical user in any way.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I can see the potential usefulness of a system that works somewhat like Bitcoin, but which manages digital media licenses instead of money. It would allow for such things as proof of ownership of a license and potentially controlled transfer of licenses between individuals.

It could also allow the separation of media delivery from purchase. For example, you could purchase a license for a book or movie from a seller and then later submit that license to a data provider to deliver that media to you on demand for a small fee. So that for example you could read your book on any device that supports it without having to do the work of format shifting and copying yourself. The convenience might go a long way toward combatting piracy.

Just some thoughts. I doubt this will ever happen.

I could see the use myself, and so does Adobe. Adobe Digital Editions is the result of that mindset. And it works, to an extent.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm afraid I don't agree with you. The DRM on DVDs does what it's supposed to, which is to prevent people making casual copies of commercial DVDs. Of course there are ways around this for the determined person, but, nonetheless, I think it serves a purpose that's beneficial to the publisher, and doesn't inconvenience the typical user in any way.

I am aware of your opinions on DRM. I am afraid I still disagree.

I am not alone on MobileRead in thinking that illegal torrent sites are the standard recourse of the casual copier.
I am not alone in thinking that the people who don't know how to do that, also don't know what a "file" is.
I am not alone in thinking that the impact one way or another is meaningless -- the vast majority of piracy happens regardless of DRM, and the vast majority of sales, either regardless or in spite of DRM.
I am not alone in thinking that the users who are inconvenienced tend to be the MVP customers.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I am aware of your opinions on DRM. I am afraid I still disagree.

You're very welcome to disagree. I'm expressing a personal opinion, not declaiming a universal truth that everyone must accept .

I am not alone on MobileRead in thinking that illegal torrent sites are the standard recourse of the casual copier.

I would say that anyone who use a torrent site is a serious pirate, not simply a person who thinks it would be nice to give their friend a copy of the DVD they've just bought. We must agree to differ about that.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would say that anyone who use a torrent site is a serious pirate, not simply a person who thinks it would be nice to give their friend a copy of the DVD they've just bought. We must agree to differ about that.

You might be depressed to find out how many people casually use torrent sites to download illegally-obtained media.
It is surprisingly common, and the people in question don't really think about it much, don't really see anything wrong with it, etc...


i.e. As I see it, anyone likely to think it would be nice to share their videos with their friends would also think it would be nice to have other people share videos with them. Via torrent sites. And they really do view it as friendly sharing.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

The issue with unbreakable DRM is that it is a flawed concept on a technical level, and the people who want it are not the people who have to make it...

if Analog-hole is the ultimate tool then everything is venerable, including cable/digital TV, stock image websites, video streaming sites and everything else that can be captured digitally. What is your advice for them, drop all guards ? what message it will give to their consumer, that their service is for free? There is importance of perception and fear play most with average people.

I don't know, why don't you ask all the authors who are currently making a living without DRM....

What the frack does that have to do with anything?

Cost of a title will determine whether eBook will be pirated or not. Currently print is main form of income for publisher/author and anything that eBook sales yield is considered bonus. I know that some are making living from "only digital" editions, but how much is that any figure?

There is no problem.

In my opinion, spending money on books is always risky, specially when you don't know beforehand that it will really be rewarding, only after a week you know, that's how I experience most of the time. unless i hook up with a particular author, so your take on "honest buyer" is holds as long as peoples are rich.

And as long as a technology do not affect most of us in a substantial manner we do not care, and that is the situation right now. See nowadays politicians are talking about curbing net neutrality because now it is affecting them. Few years from now piracy will not be something you can ignore, then the question will not be that if you made money but whether it was enough?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by webroot

if Analog-hole is the ultimate tool then everything is venerable, including cable/digital TV, stock image websites, video streaming sites and everything else that can be captured digitally.

Correct.
Except for the stock image websites, as you can always right-click and save -- or worst comes to worst, rip the image URL from the Network tab in Firefox or Chrome.

What is your advice for them, drop all guards ? what message it will give to their consumer, that their service is for free? There is importance of perception and fear play most with average people.

No, just the stupid guards. I encourage them they need no encouragement to only offer their wares to paid customers.
How on earth can you possibly imagine that "paying for something" gives the message "our service is free"???

Cost of a title will determine whether eBook will be pirated or not. Currently print is main form of income for publisher/author and anything that eBook sales yield is considered bonus. I know that some are making living from "only digital" editions, but how much is that any figure?

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
The ebook business is a massive component of book sales, and successful indie authors make more money off ebook royalties than successful tradpub authors make off BPH ripoff advances on pbooks and ebooks.

In my opinion, spending money on books is always risky, specially when you don't know beforehand that it will really be rewarding, only after a week you know, that's how I experience most of the time. unless i hook up with a particular author, so your take on "honest buyer" is holds as long as peoples are rich.

And as long as a technology do not affect most of us in a substantial manner we do not care, and that is the situation right now. See nowadays politicians are talking about curbing net neutrality because now it is affecting them. Few years from now piracy will not be something you can ignore, then the question will not be that if you made money but whether it was enough?

To be honest, I have no idea what you mean by these paragraphs. Are you replying to something I said? If so, can you clarify what you are saying?

[webroot]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

To be honest, I have no idea what you mean by these paragraphs. Are you replying to something I said? If so, can you clarify what you are saying?

Those are general thoughts, I was pointing there paying for book is not easy in all cases.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I am not alone on MobileRead in thinking that illegal torrent sites are the standard recourse of the casual copier.
I am not alone in thinking that the people who don't know how to do that, also don't know what a "file" is.

I certainly know people who know what a file is but don't know how to use an illegal (or legal) torrent site. My parents for instance. And, although I'm sure we could figure it out, my wife and I.

One reason I wouldn't want to figure it out is a moderate, but real, fear that I would make a mistake and wind up with adware on my PC.

Now, when Mobileread's eBook collection was based on Canadian copyright, I did know how to get those books in violation of US law. But, of course, torrents were not involved.

There are a couple reasons why DRM makes more sense with eBooks than music or even movies.

One is that readers are, on average, older than people who like current music. The age at which people are most likely to be torrent-literate is younger than the age when people are most likely to read books.

Another is that most readers do not reread, whereas the vast majority of listeners hear the same song many times. Personally, as soon as I am done an eBook, I delete it, so being able to move the book to another device is irrelevant.

A third is that many eBook readers borrow from public libraries. Even DRM opponents often realize that DRM for library books makes sense. This means that the publisher already is using DRM for one big group of customers, and so it is easy to do so for everyone.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

I Even DRM opponents often realize that DRM for library books makes sense..

that is what I have been harping

Now look at this case:

Consider publisher A, who is selling on kindle platform for several years, he choose to apply kindle drm on books sold. Now someday publisher A finds a copy of his book on pirate site or in a torrent network, They must be insane to keep using DRM option, completely devoid of basic logic. Also other publisher using ADEPT would learn to not waste money on DRM. I am questioning stand that say DRM is totally useless.

[disconnected]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

One is that readers are, on average, older than people who like current music. The age at which people are most likely to be torrent-literate is younger than the age when people are most likely to read books.

But isn't that a temporary thing? I'm seventy-one now so I obviously didn't grow up knowing about torrent sites. I'm assuming that kids now grow up torrent-literate and will retain that knowledge into their peak reading years. They may well decide to actually pay for their ebooks but it won't be because they don't know how to get them illegally.