Advertising in eBooks

[dcptcons4evr]

It would be a shame to see this, I hate the fact that ads are already starting to saturate online video

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

My objection to advertising in e-books has to do with what has happened with website advertising. At first, website adevertising was just there; you could choose to look at it or not. Then they started to put the ads in the middle of the text of the site. Inconvenient but one could still just skip over it. Then came the pop-ups, blocking the content, and the video ads that have to be endured before moving on.

It's always easy to spot the IE users: they're the ones complaining about the ads and popups on websites.

Us longtime Firefox users are saying to ourselves, "Huh? What's she talking about?".

Firefox + AdBlock =

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

sites that publish pirated copies of ebooks (or anything else) are self-policing

ROFLMAO. Self-policing doesn't work for anything and I doubt that anybody with so few ethics that they'd knowingly distribute pirated copies of books that were otherwise easily obtainable has enough ethics to bother with policing a web site.

Your point about txt files is valid-I should have mentioned that viruses are as apt to come from simply visiting a malicious web site as from downloading something from it. (You *are* aware that you can't visit a web site without downloading it, right?)

HTML files can contain malware. It's happened in the past, just as it's happened with PDF files. (AFAIK malicious HTML has never carried a virus, but that's more a matter of the lack of ingenuity than incapability. Maybe lack of intent, too, as the only HTML exploits I recall were technical demos showing that it could be done.)

Of course the holes, in all cases except when directly executable files are downloaded, are in the readers, i.e. the browser for HTML files or the PDF reader. Adobe doesn't control all the PDF readers and, IMO, doesn't do all that great a job of patching the holes in what they do control. They certainly don't seem to be as motivated to find the holes as the hackers are so they are definitely *not* proactive about patching them, which means that there is always an opportunity for somebody to slip something thru.

Most browser makers seem to be much more proactive about finding & patching holes, but the content they deal with is so much less controlled that there are inevitably a lot more holes in them. Theoretically it's possible that the 'sandbox' approach will protect the user, but I remain doubtful. IMO there are probably some holes in how the sandbox is implemented in some browsers-they just haven't been found yet.

P2P darknet might be safer as you don't need to visit a 'website' once you have the client set up but in that case self-policing is even more of a joke.

[speakingtohe]

ROFLMAO. Self-policing doesn't work for anything and I doubt that anybody with so few ethics that they'd knowingly distribute pirated copies of books that were otherwise easily obtainable has enough ethics to bother with policing a web site.

P2P darknet might be safer as you don't need to visit a 'website' once you have the client set up but in that case self-policing is even more of a joke.

Joke or not it is in place and very effective in the majority of member only sites.

Even the non member dump sites and anything goes sites like TPB have comment sections available.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

ROFLMAO. Self-policing doesn't work for anything and I doubt that anybody with so few ethics that they'd knowingly distribute pirated copies of books that were otherwise easily obtainable has enough ethics to bother with policing a web site.

If you don't like ebook piracy, just say that you don't like ebook piracy, don't make up FUD (may I call you Elmer?)

See, unlike you, I'm not just talking out of my nether regions. I'm describing what I see every day-- there isn't a day of the week that I don't visit movie and ebook and software pirate sites, and I know what happens there. The pages for individual downloads have comment areas-- if there is a virus, people tell about it. If the administrators are told, they remove it. Witness, for example, this forum area for reporting bad torrents.

Don't even look at it from an "ethics" point of view-- look at it from a "business" point of view-- the operators of these sites want repeat visitors. If you insert or allow malware, you won't get regular, repeat visitors. They will move on to sites where the don't have those problems. And copyright infringers want a sense of community as much as anyone else-- many if not most sites have forum areas, some with much higher traffic than Mobileread.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

And copyright infringers want a sense of community as much as anyone else-- many if not most sites have forum areas, some with much higher traffic than Mobileread.

(Just did some comparison on that last point: Mobileread-- registered members 77,875, most online at one time 1,442. Thepiratebay's forum-- registered members 134,197, most online at one time 31,738.)

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by HamsterRage

It's always easy to spot the IE users: they're the ones complaining about the ads and popups on websites.

Us longtime Firefox users are saying to ourselves, "Huh? What's she talking about?".

Firefox + AdBlock =

IE has a fair popup blocker and one can use adblock program in IE. I chose not to because the adblock programs I've seen block all ads. Ads pay for most of the sites I visit so I don't feel it is right to block all of them. Besides, I actually choose to read some of them.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by jhempel24

O I'm thinking that a 10 second ad being put at the start of the book when you open it might be coming in the next few years.

What are your thoughts?

How is that "10 second" ad going to show in my Sony Reader? It doesn't have vid capability. It doesn't have a way to force-lock a page for viewing.

Is that ad going to be included in all formats of the ebook, or only some of them? Or will the book only be released in one format, which is only readable on computers/devices that have the software to show the ad?

The *big* reason ads-in-ebooks, other than "preview of similar content," aren't going to work, is that the seller can't control the way the content is viewed. Even with DRM'd ebooks, they could be read on a computer, a tiny netbook, a dedicated ebook reader, or a cellphone; it's almost impossible to design an ad that (1) works and (2) isn't horrifically invasive & software-crashing on all of those.

And then there's the option of "strip the DRM & remove the ad." Publishers are carefully ignoring how common DRM-stripping is (once they've sold the book, they're not actually concerned with how you read it), but advertisers who are paying to have their content included are going to be sharply aware of tools that remove that content.

There's no problem with "how do you include ads in ebooks?" You can add them as in-line text, with varying degrees of annoyance; as images in those formats that support images; at the beginning as mandatory "must read this" pages; at the end as "further attractions," and probably several other options.

There's not even much problem with "will people pay for ebooks with ads?" Sure they will. Make it obvious that ads lower the price of ebooks, and some people will go for that. Make those ebooks free, and more will go for it.

What you can't do, is make them cost-effective for advertisers. Can't guarantee a number of views per sale. Advertisers in comic books *counted* on comics being shared among friends, given away & resold; every new reader was a new potential customer. Advertisers in pulp books could expect the book to be handed off or resold used. But ebooks are hyped as "no resale/gifts possible"--how much would an advertiser pay, per book, to reach *one* person? Who may-or-may-not be interested in the product being advertised?

[janneman]

bookboon already offers free textbooks which are full of advertisements. Every 3 pages there is a 1/3 page advertisement.

One should note however that printed magazines are full of advertisements too.

I even remember a college textbook that had complete pages with advertisements, though they were about products discussed in the text.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

If you don't like ebook piracy, just say that you don't like ebook piracy, don't make up FUD (may I call you Elmer?)

See, unlike you, I'm not just talking out of my nether regions. I'm describing what I see every day-- there isn't a day of the week that I don't visit movie and ebook and software pirate sites, and I know what happens there.

Uh-huh. And I work computer security every day and I see what happens to people who frequent those sites without adequate protection. The results tell me all *I* need to know about how well those sites police themselves.

Good luck, smarta**

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

Uh-huh. And I work computer security every day and I see what happens to people who frequent those sites without adequate protection. The results tell me all *I* need to know about how well those sites police themselves.

Good luck, smarta**

The key words here are "without adequate protection." And learning which sites are safe and which are traps. You don't need luck, you need experience and knowledge. I may be a smartasteriskasterisk, but I've been doing this for going on 18 years now and I know what I'm talking about.

[jhempel24]

It's not a 10sec video add or anything, it's like a print ad, every time you open the file to read.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

How is that "10 second" ad going to show in my Sony Reader? It doesn't have vid capability. It doesn't have a way to force-lock a page for viewing.

Is that ad going to be included in all formats of the ebook, or only some of them? Or will the book only be released in one format, which is only readable on computers/devices that have the software to show the ad?

The *big* reason ads-in-ebooks, other than "preview of similar content," aren't going to work, is that the seller can't control the way the content is viewed. Even with DRM'd ebooks, they could be read on a computer, a tiny netbook, a dedicated ebook reader, or a cellphone; it's almost impossible to design an ad that (1) works and (2) isn't horrifically invasive & software-crashing on all of those.

And then there's the option of "strip the DRM & remove the ad." Publishers are carefully ignoring how common DRM-stripping is (once they've sold the book, they're not actually concerned with how you read it), but advertisers who are paying to have their content included are going to be sharply aware of tools that remove that content.

There's no problem with "how do you include ads in ebooks?" You can add them as in-line text, with varying degrees of annoyance; as images in those formats that support images; at the beginning as mandatory "must read this" pages; at the end as "further attractions," and probably several other options.

There's not even much problem with "will people pay for ebooks with ads?" Sure they will. Make it obvious that ads lower the price of ebooks, and some people will go for that. Make those ebooks free, and more will go for it.

What you can't do, is make them cost-effective for advertisers. Can't guarantee a number of views per sale. Advertisers in comic books *counted* on comics being shared among friends, given away & resold; every new reader was a new potential customer. Advertisers in pulp books could expect the book to be handed off or resold used. But ebooks are hyped as "no resale/gifts possible"--how much would an advertiser pay, per book, to reach *one* person? Who may-or-may-not be interested in the product being advertised?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by jhempel24

It's not a 10sec video add or anything, it's like a print ad, every time you open the file to read.

How does it force the 10 seconds? For that matter, how does it force the ad after you've started reading--how does it inflict a splash page before the page you left off reading at?

Sony's ePub renderer won't even do full justification, and hasn't been updated to allow B&N-style credit-card DRM. They're not likely to update the firmware to allow invasive ads. (Neither is the ePub plugin for Firefox.)

In order to make sure readers saw the advert splash page every time they opened the file, it'd need to be DRM'd so they can't remove it, and coded so that ebook programs recognized the ad. That severely limits what types of ebooks this would work on, which limits the buyers--which, by extension, limits the number of advertisers who would pay for it.

There are two big problems with ads in ebooks:
1) Making them work on every platform, every program, every device that reads the ebook (tech issue, that; solvable to a usable degree with some thought), and
2) Making that delivery method worth paying for. Making the ads targeted enough & effective enough that they convince readers to buy more of whatever's being advertised, otherwise the advertisers won't pay for the ads. Especially ads that require special coding & costly DRM.

[speakingtohe]

I can think of several ways of advertising in ebooks that would be reasonable effective and not overly annoying except to those who are totaly opposed to advertising.

I can even think of one or two that might be considered added value by many readers.

Inserting a coupon, recipe, or amusing story at the end of a chapter with a brought to you by xxx message would not unduly interrupt the reading process except to the most controlling (it shouldn't be this way because I say so) kind of person.

Tailoring advertising to the market reached by each type of literature has already been done to a great extent so it is probably only a matter of time till an ad exec reads this thread and says Aha!!

Bet it reaches the IPAD market first.

[CaraM]

I think there will be ads on ebooks just as there are ads in movie theaters now. At first I hated the commercials tacked onto movies, but like everything else, I've gotten used to it. Amazing what you can get used to.

www.caramarsi.com
Logan's Redemption
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0040JI3PG