[Digitimes] E Ink sees revenues decline over 60% on year in January

[karunaji]

$1000 for a 20 inch e-ink monitor would be fine. Currently I try to print out most materials for reading at my work because it is easy to miss many things on LCDs but 10" panel is too small for this.

It is expected that they would be more expensive but a screen of resolution 1650x1080 has only 4 times more pixels than 800x600. Generally, bigger things are cheaper to produce per each sq. inch. Why it should be different for e-ink?

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Generally, bigger things are cheaper to produce per each sq. inch. Why it should be different for e-ink?

A larger array of something is more expensive to produce than a small array, because there is a greater chance of being affected by a single imperfection, and so a greater amount of products lost to failing QA. E-Ink is no different.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Generally, bigger things are cheaper to produce per each sq. inch. Why it should be different for e-ink?

In mechanical manufacturing, yes.
But not in the world of electronics.

In semiconductor manufacturing, each facility is designed to work at a specific scale for the elements it can make. The size of the elements that go into the manufactured devices stays the same and to go bigger you simply put more of them together in an array.

As Murraypaul pointed out, putting more elements in an array means more chances for elements within the array to go wrong and since the product is useless if too many (sometimes too many = 1) the cost per *good* unit goes up with the size of the device manufactured. (Larger devices also consume more power and generate more waste heat than equivalent devices built to smaller scales.)

(The scale of element manufacturing is referred to as the process. For example, the XBOX CPU and GPU were first introduced at 90nm scale and over time migrated to 65nm and even 45nm. In the process they became significantly *cheaper* to manufacture and consume less power, generate less heat, and are more reliable.)

It also helps to understand that in eink displays, the pixels in the quoted resolutions are made up of dozens/hundreds of the actual eink particles. So making bigger displays means each pixel is going to be made of more of the color-shifting elements; doubling the size means four times the number of elements and four times the odds of getting manufacturing defects.
Check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:El...c_display).PNG
From the wikipedia eink article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Ink
Also check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...lectrophoretic

Making the basic electrophoretic eink film in large sizes isn't the issue.
http://www.the-digital-reader.com/20...-a-300-screen/
Attaching the electrodes and electronics and getting usable products is.

Again: it is about the cost of developing&manufacturing the product versus the size of the potential market. The demand out there doesn't justify the investment; there simply aren't all that many people who would willingly pay US$1000 for it even if it existed. Most would rather put up with LCD at one-tenth the cost.

[karunaji]

Still large LCD panels are cheaper per square inch than small ones. I don't see how that wouldn't be applicable to e-ink.

The demand out there doesn't justify the investment

It would be a risk but no one knows for sure. It could turn out to be a profitable business niche. E-ink screens could minimize errors at workplace that arise due to tiredness when reading LCD screens all day long. The problem is that corporations no longer experiment with technology. Nowadays everyone wants to imitate Apple which is mostly a marketing company anyway. And that's really sad.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Still large LCD panels are cheaper per square inch than small ones. I don't see how that wouldn't be applicable to e-ink.

Because LCD technology is 20-plus years old.
Because large LCD displays sell by the tens of millions in TVs.
Because large (TV) LCD displays themselves are a money-losing business.
Just ask Sony and Samsung, among others.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81E0BO20120215

The main reason consumer LCD panels are cheap is because there is excess capacity and everybody is trying to get *something* out of the factories. LCD is cheap because everybody and their uncle is making them; in Japan, S. Korea. Taiwan, and China. Especially china. Too much capacity, too few buyers.

When the mature tech can't make money, who is going to invest in an immature tech to go after the same market? That is why SED died. And why eINK is wisely going after eink readers, signage, and even watches instead of desktop displays.

[karunaji]

So, LCD is cheap because everyone is making them but eink is unavailable because there is only one manufacturer. Sounds like a patent problem that is stifling the progress.

And I don't believe that companies are all-knowing and can be sure that it will not be profitable. They make stupid decisions all the time. Business is always a risk but why not experiment? I don't need 20" screen. A laptop with 14" e-ink would be fantastic.

[b0ned0me]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Still large LCD panels are cheaper per square inch than small ones. I don't see how that wouldn't be applicable to e-ink.

Your comment is only relevant if you are happy to accept a 20-inch display with the same number of pixels - in which case you may as well just use your current ereader with a magnifying glass.

A 50 inch 1920x1080 LCD has exactly the same number of pixels as a 24in 1920*1080 LCD- everything is just bigger. The higher costs for more glass, plastic, semiconductors is offset against the ease of having a lot more space to work with - so prices are not too different.

But compare versus a 50inch 4096×3072 LCD, and together with the increased visual quality, you'll see a colossal jump in price for all the reasons mentioned already - and that's exactly the kind of increase in size AND image quality you are talking about.

[karunaji]

I am not talking about 50 inch screens or other consumer toys. I just want an e-ink screen that would be comfortable for reading pdf documents. As I gather from this forum I am not alone in this desire. That fact is that epub or mobi are fine for purely textual information like fiction but technical reading is still mostly based on pdf. That's not going to change in near future due to variety of formats.

I suppose that A4 size e-ink tablet would serve this need. However, if another tablet is a risky business, it would be even simpler to make a separate e-ink computer screen. Some people have already hacked Kindle to act as a second computer monitor but that's too crude to be practical. One would need 2 Kindle DX screens to put together to make a laptop sized screen. It should not cost considerably more that the price of 2 Kinde DX devices. It could be even slightly cheaper as you need only the screen itself with some controller chips, without the CPU, RAM or battery.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by karunaji

It would be a risk but no one knows for sure. It could turn out to be a profitable business niche. E-ink screens could minimize errors at workplace that arise due to tiredness when reading LCD screens all day long.

Even assuming the LCD tiredness remark, current eInk screens would be completely useless for the majority of business use due to lack of colour and very slow refresh rates.

[fjtorres]

The closest existing market for which eink tech would be suitable is medical monitors.
Small market, high prices.
http://medicaldisplaysforless.com/ca...pk_category=16

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Even assuming the LCD tiredness remark, current eInk screens would be completely useless for the majority of business use due to lack of colour and very slow refresh rates.

Most business applications do not require color at all. And most software respond much slower than e-ink refresh anyway. The only thing that would not be possible on e-ink is to watch videos including most advertisements.

But bosses are people too who prefer eye-candy instead of a screen that is better for doing real work. There was a recent article how selling iPhones is less profitable to US network operators. And yet they won't reject the business model that is neither beneficial to them, nor their customers. And I almost hear voices telling me that it is the only way of doing things and it is impossible to change their business models despite almost the rest of the world providing much better service quality and higher user satisfaction for lower prices.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The closest existing market for which eink tech would be suitable is medical monitors.
Small market, high prices.
http://medicaldisplaysforless.com/ca...pk_category=16

They are the regular LCD monitors although the resolution is quite good. Definitely it is not the cost of LCD panels but the customization that has the greatest influence on price.

And most things connected with the US medical system are overpriced anyway.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Most business applications do not require color at all. And most software respond much slower than e-ink refresh anyway. The only thing that would not be possible on e-ink is to watch videos including most advertisements.

Unless you have some magic eInk device that isn't available anywhere else, that is really obviously false. Try scrolling up and down on a web page. Try switching between tabs or windows. Try bringing up a menu bar. Those all happen far quicker than an eInk screen refresh.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Unless you have some magic eInk device that isn't available anywhere else, that is really obviously false. Try scrolling up and down on a web page. Try switching between tabs or windows. Try bringing up a menu bar. Those all happen far quicker than an eInk screen refresh.

Scrolling is not necessary when you can flip pages. I am talking about entering data and waiting for response which is what most business apps do. A lot of business apps are very slow whether it data entry or information retrieval. One particular program I have to use at my work had a noticeable delay of about 1 second each time I press Enter. E-ink slowness wouldn't change the experience at all. If this program required constant scrolling then it would be completely unusable.

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Unless you have some magic eInk device that isn't available anywhere else, that is really obviously false. Try scrolling up and down on a web page. Try switching between tabs or windows. Try bringing up a menu bar. Those all happen far quicker than an eInk screen refresh.

scrolling and animations two years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g9l3...eature=related

bringing up a menu bar (on the old display controller, not the current faster one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEUIIYfeArU

scrolling and animations 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxwceUvxlCo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwuDlyalvwY

as for switching between tabs or windows The Pocketbook Pro devices have task switching ability. You can switch between the last 10 open books or other tasks by opening the menu and choosing which one you want. takes half a second.

you can switch between books or even between books and an open browser window to search Wikipedia etc.

there are devices out there with better capabilities than Kindle and Nook and Kobo but try to get a reputable well known reviewer to mention them in articles about the "best" eink readers...



on another note the original article isnt clear and this seems to be a recurring theme since the name change to EINK Holdings. It doesnt mean just electrophoretic displays produced by EINK. EINK Holdings is the new name of the merged PrimeView and Eink. it could just as easily be that their FFS LCD (Hydis) business has slackened due to stronger sales of competing IPS display which are currently cheaper i would think because of LGs production volume. or it could be a shrinkage in volume across all 3 product lines(regular LCD panels, Hydis FFS-LCDs and EINK EPD)