Re-selling DRMed ebooks: Legal or not? - Page 2

HarryT · 06-29-2009, 03:29 AM

But I don't see anything wrong in eBooks not being transferrable myself, so I'm happy to abide by those conditions. Physical books deterioriate over time; eBooks do not, so it seems perfectly reasonable to me that usage should be restricted to the original purchaser.

kaas · 06-29-2009, 03:32 AM

But nobody can switch of the drm servers with a physical book...
Also, please consider the following: books can easily withstand three to four centuries. Data often can not be read after decades ( because the format dies out, the reader die, the data corrupts...)!

cheers

HarryT · 06-29-2009, 03:48 AM

But, with the greatest respect, what does any of that have to do with re-selling books? I'm afraid I don't understand the point that you're making. Apologies if I'm missing something.

kaas · 06-29-2009, 03:57 AM

I think that the question hinges on whether you consider ebooks like regular books, where you own the actual copy, or see them as a license for reading the information once - and maybe a few more times as long as the seller agrees to it ( maybe something akin to purchasing a cinema ticket?).
I believe I own a copy and thus may resell it ( which I would be waaay to lazy to ever do as I consider ebooks rather like consumable goods) but would certainly understand everybody who compares it rather to watching a movie...

guess opinions just differ.

cheers,
kaas

JSWolf · 06-29-2009, 04:12 AM

This is a grey area and we have no idea if the license agreement is legal or not. We won't know this until we get a case that goes in front of a judge.

Shaggy · 06-29-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Look at the terms and conditions of the site where you bought the books. I believe you'll find that on most - probably all - sites, the books are specifically stated to be "non transferrable" and those are the terms that you agreed to when you bought the books. You cannot, therefore, give them to anybody else.

In the US, it's highly likely that those terms are not binding. Just because a seller puts terms on their site does not mean that they are legally enforceable. US courts have already ruled on very similar cases with software and have said that claiming "it's a license, not a sale" does not hold, and that first sale rights still apply.

Shaggy · 06-29-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think personally that if you agree to a set of conditions that you should stick by them. To turn around later and say "I don't like those conditions so I'm going to ignore them" strikes me as being a dishonourable thing to do. Just my personal opinion, of course.

Then again, putting conditions on a sale that a seller knows are not legally binding could also be considered dishonourable.

HarryT · 06-29-2009, 09:51 AM

As I said, Shaggy, it's just my personal viewpoint. If I found myself unable to agree to a vendor's terms and conditions, then personally I wouldn't buy from that vendor.

Shaggy · 06-29-2009, 10:36 AM

I agree it's a personal decision, but if a vendor is stating terms that are not legally enforceable, I would have no qualms about ignoring those terms. If a vendor wants me to honor their terms, then they should not state ones that they know are not legal. You could say that both sides in such a situation are being dishonest. The vendor is falsely implying what terms they can put on the sale, and the buyer is falsely implying that they'll agree to them. IMO, it pretty much cancels out.

sony_fox · 06-29-2009, 11:04 AM

HarryT have you ever broken the speed limit? just by a few mph? Legal doesn't always mean right, and illegal doesn't always mean wrong.

Copying an artistic work and selling those copies for personal gain without contributing to the artist is wrong. Whether it's music, books or paintings. The artist put a lot of effort into producing that work in your hands, in the form they deemed as close to perfect as they can manage. If you don't like it, and want to part with it, you've paid for that 'edition' of the work and can do what you like with it, including pass it on to others. Even for a personal profit. - this is true for physical books, CDs, paintings etc and I see no reason why it shouldn't be true for ebooks. BUT the big provisio hanging over all of it, is that once you've passed it on, you don't have any further rights/access to it. No copying. Of course this is muddied slightly by artists who don't mind you copying who produce their work for free and prefer to widely known rather than slightly less poor.

In terms of your specific legal situation - speak to lawyers. It's their job to advise you. If you've got half a dozen odd books on a reader you don't want anymore, I doubt that anyone is bothered. If you are making a living from it, someone will want their fair share first. - All in My Humble Opinion of course.

toomanybooks · 06-29-2009, 11:40 AM

My advice would be to sell the ebook readers blank and removed from your account. Regardless of whether or not you have a case, do you really want to have to pay a lawyer if they do come after you?

Also, I agree with Harry. Ebooks are voluntarily purchased under certain conditions. By purchasing the ebook you are agreeing to those terms and should uphold them. If you do not agree with restrictions on ebooks take a stand and refuse to buy DRMed ebooks.

Jellby · 06-29-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toomanybooks

Also, I agree with Harry. Ebooks are voluntarily purchased under certain conditions. By purchasing the ebook you are agreeing to those terms and should uphold them.

While this is true, it's also true that just displaying some conditions in legalese or forcing the user to check a box saying "I agree to those terms" does not mean the user is really aware of the possible restrictions, and I believe they wouldn't be legally enforceable.

Probably, the legality or illegality of selling ebooks you've bought will be independent or whatever "terms and conditions" one can find in the ebook stores.

HarryT · 06-29-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sony_fox

HarryT have you ever broken the speed limit? just by a few mph? Legal doesn't always mean right, and illegal doesn't always mean wrong.

If you re-read my previous posts, you'll see that nowhere do I mention the law. I consider it wrong to agree to a vendor's terms, and then turn around and ignore them. I really don't care whether or not it's legal or illegal - to me, I'm afraid, it's just plain wrong.

Shaggy · 06-29-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you re-read my previous posts, you'll see that nowhere do I mention the law. I consider it wrong to agree to a vendor's terms, and then turn around and ignore them. I really don't care whether or not it's legal or illegal - to me, I'm afraid, it's just plain wrong.

I'm just curious, but do you also feel that it's wrong for a vendor to list terms in a contract that they know are not enforceable?

HarryT · 06-29-2009, 12:20 PM

Yes, of course I do, but are you 100% certain that they are not enforceable? Has there been a test case which has ruled this to be so? I would be a little surprised to see reputable companies imposing illegal contracts on their customers, and companies whom I genuinely consider to be the "good guys" of the industry - eg Baen - impose these terms.

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06-29-2009, 03:29 AM	#16
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	But I don't see anything wrong in eBooks not being transferrable myself, so I'm happy to abide by those conditions. Physical books deterioriate over time; eBooks do not, so it seems perfectly reasonable to me that usage should be restricted to the original purchaser.

06-29-2009, 03:32 AM	#17
kaas Muncher of ebooks Posts: 312 Karma: 6423 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Fürth, Germany Device: Pocketbook 360	But nobody can switch of the drm servers with a physical book... Also, please consider the following: books can easily withstand three to four centuries. Data often can not be read after decades ( because the format dies out, the reader die, the data corrupts...)! cheers

06-29-2009, 03:48 AM	#18
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	But, with the greatest respect, what does any of that have to do with re-selling books? I'm afraid I don't understand the point that you're making. Apologies if I'm missing something.

06-29-2009, 03:57 AM	#19
kaas Muncher of ebooks Posts: 312 Karma: 6423 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Fürth, Germany Device: Pocketbook 360	I think that the question hinges on whether you consider ebooks like regular books, where you own the actual copy, or see them as a license for reading the information once - and maybe a few more times as long as the seller agrees to it ( maybe something akin to purchasing a cinema ticket?). I believe I own a copy and thus may resell it ( which I would be waaay to lazy to ever do as I consider ebooks rather like consumable goods) but would certainly understand everybody who compares it rather to watching a movie... guess opinions just differ. cheers, kaas

06-29-2009, 04:12 AM	#20
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,840 Karma: 128597114 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	This is a grey area and we have no idea if the license agreement is legal or not. We won't know this until we get a case that goes in front of a judge.

06-29-2009, 09:51 AM	#23
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	As I said, Shaggy, it's just my personal viewpoint. If I found myself unable to agree to a vendor's terms and conditions, then personally I wouldn't buy from that vendor.

06-29-2009, 10:36 AM	#24
Shaggy Wizard Posts: 4,293 Karma: 529619 Join Date: May 2007 Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG	I agree it's a personal decision, but if a vendor is stating terms that are not legally enforceable, I would have no qualms about ignoring those terms. If a vendor wants me to honor their terms, then they should not state ones that they know are not legal. You could say that both sides in such a situation are being dishonest. The vendor is falsely implying what terms they can put on the sale, and the buyer is falsely implying that they'll agree to them. IMO, it pretty much cancels out.

06-29-2009, 11:04 AM	#25
sony_fox Zealot Posts: 109 Karma: 84 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Manchester Device: Kobo Auroa H2O	HarryT have you ever broken the speed limit? just by a few mph? Legal doesn't always mean right, and illegal doesn't always mean wrong. Copying an artistic work and selling those copies for personal gain without contributing to the artist is wrong. Whether it's music, books or paintings. The artist put a lot of effort into producing that work in your hands, in the form they deemed as close to perfect as they can manage. If you don't like it, and want to part with it, you've paid for that 'edition' of the work and can do what you like with it, including pass it on to others. Even for a personal profit. - this is true for physical books, CDs, paintings etc and I see no reason why it shouldn't be true for ebooks. BUT the big provisio hanging over all of it, is that once you've passed it on, you don't have any further rights/access to it. No copying. Of course this is muddied slightly by artists who don't mind you copying who produce their work for free and prefer to widely known rather than slightly less poor. In terms of your specific legal situation - speak to lawyers. It's their job to advise you. If you've got half a dozen odd books on a reader you don't want anymore, I doubt that anyone is bothered. If you are making a living from it, someone will want their fair share first. - All in My Humble Opinion of course.

06-29-2009, 11:40 AM	#26
toomanybooks Addict Posts: 302 Karma: 1039424 Join Date: Apr 2009 Device: Ipad, Ipod Touch, KIndle Fire	My advice would be to sell the ebook readers blank and removed from your account. Regardless of whether or not you have a case, do you really want to have to pay a lawyer if they do come after you? Also, I agree with Harry. Ebooks are voluntarily purchased under certain conditions. By purchasing the ebook you are agreeing to those terms and should uphold them. If you do not agree with restrictions on ebooks take a stand and refuse to buy DRMed ebooks.

06-29-2009, 12:20 PM	#30
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Yes, of course I do, but are you 100% certain that they are not enforceable? Has there been a test case which has ruled this to be so? I would be a little surprised to see reputable companies imposing illegal contracts on their customers, and companies whom I genuinely consider to be the "good guys" of the industry - eg Baen - impose these terms.

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