TOC in Kindle UI, not in plain page

[crutledge]

phossler

Thank you very much for the information. The reason I could not find it was that it wasn't there.

Now it is there and I will test it soon.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by crutledge

I am confused, dear lady. When I load to KindlePreviewer some form of toc.ncx shows in all except for the original Kindle. (NOTE: I just rechecked and the ncx does show in the kindle and all levels of the ncx are displayed)

It does indeed. Sadly, it is used for navigation, by the devices, but not by humans, by and large. On the vast majority of Kindle devices, one may not even see the NCX, other than some of the Guide Items via the "Go To" menu. This is a big "gap" between what Previewer displays, versus what the devices display.

@Le_Sparte:

Yes, of course you can change it; it depends on how brave you are feeling. You can always do a shortened TOC--simply, the title and "Start Reading." The NCX will still be there, in the book, and the users will get the "% complete" and progress bar at the bottom, and the "Go To" menu functions for the Beginning, Cover and whatever else is in there. Oh, TOC. What they won't get is an idea of how many chapters you have, etc., either in the LITB (Look Inside the Book) or the free sample.

Now...you may wish to consider that a great TOC can also be a marketing tool; if you replaced boring chapter titles like "Chapter 9," with something more intriguing, say... (to mooch shamelessly from the wondrous Sharyn Crumb)..."If I'd Killed Him When I Met Him..." or something along those lines, you could be giving yourself a wonderful marketing advantage over your competitors.

Of course, if you are not creative in the specific way--writing headlines for a newspaper is a true art form--then you should likely leave it alone. E.g., if your chapter titles look like "See Jane Run," then, fuhgeddaboudit. If I were doing this, I'd use text for my Chapters, but that's me; I love crazy chapter titles. They intrigue me...which usually induces me to buy. That's my $.02, and not worth what you paid for it.

Hitch

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Le_Sparte

Well, everything went fine. I'm ok with my styling (no vertical-align for my title, but there's no way to do it, right?).

There's a last problem though. I now have a three-pages TOC. I'm fine with it, but if I select the start of the book with the previewer, the second page of my TOC shows up.

Hitch, you're saying there's absolutely no tick to change this?

I have had to clean up a few books that had really ugly TOC's....100+ chapters all named "1", "2", "3", etc.
I didn't like having several pages of numbers either so I did something that some people would consider taboo...I used a table.

I created a table with 4 columns and then just put the first several chapters in column 1, the second in column 2, etc. so I ended up with a TOC that looks like:
Cover
Dedication
Chapters:
1 11 21 31
2 12 22 32
3 13 23 33
4 14 24 34
5 15 25 35
6 16 26 36
and on...
About the Author

{note - the spacing is formatted to look a lot better in the book...it just doesn't display well on this forum. But you get the idea.}

I have not tried to get a table accepted by amazon...Hitch would definitely be able to let you know if they don't allow it...but it works very well on the ereader of my choice.

Some things to think about when using tables:
Think how it will look on a small screen...you will only get a few columns...I use 4 as a max.
Your links have to be inside the <td> tags eg. <td><a href="...">1</a></td>
I chose to just have a single row with my 4 columns so the <td> tags looked like:

Spoiler:

<table>
<tr>
<td>
<a href="...">1</a>
<a href="...">2</a>
<a href="...">3</a>
<a href="...">4</a>
<a href="...">5</a>
<a href="...">6</a>
etc.
</td>

<td>
<a href="...">11</a>
<a href="...">12</a>
<a href="...">13</a>
<a href="...">14</a>
<a href="...">15</a>
<a href="...">16</a>
etc.
</td>

<td>
<a href="...">21</a>
<a href="...">22</a>
<a href="...">23</a>
<a href="...">24</a>
<a href="...">25</a>
<a href="...">26</a>
etc.
</td>

<td>
<a href="...">31</a>
<a href="...">32</a>
<a href="...">33</a>
<a href="...">34</a>
<a href="...">35</a>
<a href="...">36</a>
etc.
</td>
</tr>
</table>
Of course you have to accompany this code with the proper CSS to get it to look right...an example is here...but you can change it to your tastes.

table {width:90%; margin: 1em}
td {text-align:center}
a {display:block}

I hope that helps.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I have had to clean up a few books that had really ugly TOC's....100+ chapters all named "1", "2", "3", etc.
I didn't like having several pages of numbers either so I did something that some people would consider taboo...I used a table.

I created a table with 4 columns and then just put the first several chapters in column 1, the second in column 2, etc. so I ended up with a TOC that looks like:
Cover
Dedication
Chapters:
1 11 21 31
2 12 22 32
3 13 23 33
4 14 24 34
5 15 25 35
6 16 26 36
and on...
About the Author

I was thinking that having a multi-column TOC like you did would be , Then I thought of having to hand link all those files

If you always named chapters the same way (eg Ch001.xhtml), a borrow of a previous work would get things moving quite quickly

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Le_Sparte

Well, everything went fine. I'm ok with my styling (no vertical-align for my title, but there's no way to do it, right?).

Vertical align for a title can also be accomplished with a little help from our friend....the table...or more accurately the display:table property. Unfortunately, some of the older devices may not display tables properly, but with this technique they SHOULD degrade gracefully (display at the top of the page).

The following will center vertically on your screen then you just text-align:center to get it in the middle:

CSS:
div.v-ctr {height:100%; width:100%; display:table; position:fixed}
div.v-ctr div{display:table-cell; vertical-align:middle}
p.ctr {text-align:center; text-indent:0}


HTML:
<div class="v-ctr">
<div>
<p class="ctr">Title of Your Book</p>
<p class="ctr">by</p>
<p class="ctr">Little Ol' Me</p>
</div>
</div>


Cheers!

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by theducks

I was thinking that having a multi-column TOC like you did would be , Then I thought of having to hand link all those files

If you always named chapters the same way (eg Ch001.xhtml), a borrow of a previous work would get things moving quite quickly

Yup....copy/paste and then multiple pass S/R are definitely your friend!

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I have had to clean up a few books that had really ugly TOC's....100+ chapters all named "1", "2", "3", etc.
I didn't like having several pages of numbers either so I did something that some people would consider taboo...I used a table.


I have not tried to get a table accepted by amazon...Hitch would definitely be able to let you know if they don't allow it...but it works very well on the ereader of my choice.



I hope that helps.

Turtle:

I'm sorry to keep pissing on your parade tonight, but tables are forbidden, ABSOLUTELY, for Kindle inline TOC's. I'm happy to provide the page number/paragraph reference from the Formatting Guidelines, if anyone wants it....

Hitch

[Turtle91]

Lovely...

Just another reason I prefer an app on my iThing to amazon's mess.

Any chance it is one of those rules they write down, then break themselves like negative margins?? Or maybe it was one of those things they put in the guide because their older devices couldn't handle tables, but the newer KF8 ones can??

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Lovely...

Just another reason I prefer an app on my iThing to amazon's mess.

Any chance it is one of those rules they write down, then break themselves like negative margins?? Or maybe it was one of those things they put in the guide because their older devices couldn't handle tables, but the newer KF8 ones can??

Actually, you can't use a table for the iThing's TOC, either, boyo. It's just one of those things. And, no, they don't break it themselves; when they were converting with MBPC, back in "the day," they used a list, which we mere mortals weren't allowed to use, but not the tables for the TOC.

The reason is, really, it's bloody impossible to navigate around, if you have a K or K2. I mean, hell, try it. (Ask me how I know? Because I have a book out there, in the universe, that had a guy that couldn't live with the line-wrapping. Yes, boys and girls...that Kindle book uses a TABLE for its inline TOC. Shhhhhh!). Trying to use the little toggle switch? OMG. What a giant pain. But bygod, those line wraps all align perfectly, no matter what size the font. (I also have a screenplay out there that has characters speaking simultaneously. The screenwriter put two names and the screen-directions and the dialogue in bloody parallel COLUMNS, every line stair-stepping slightly closer to the left-margin. Yes, yes, I admit it! I used itty-bitty tables for that, too. Now ask me if I'd ever do it again. I dare ya.)

And the negative indent? That's bloody real now too. Try it on a K8, and your stuff will run right off the left-hand side of the page. Urgh. We're discussing whether to stop taking poetry altogether which, yes, I know, I know, makes us heathen pagans, but...5-6-10 iterations of poetry line breaks with a poet ("...but, but, that's not where the line should break! You've ruined my poems!") can make my head go all futsy. YOU guys think I'm cranky? Ha! You should see me when I see a book of poetry named "Version 8" going out the door.

H

[Le_Sparte]

Oups, sorry, I've missed the notifications about this thread.

Hi everybody.

Many thanks for your answers. I agree with everything. Having three pages numbered with 1,2,3 chapter-titles is really ugly. That's exactly why I tried to get rid of it. For sure, we're on an emerging market here. I think (hope?) it's a problem of brave pioneers.

Sadly Hitch, I'll have to let your 0.2$ advice to some other authors out there. I'm not really fond of naming each chapter (at least for the kind of book I'm writing). I can understand it stimulates imagination, but for me, it produces the exact opposite effect. Cormac McCarthy named his chapters in Blood Meridian and it ruined my reading (tastes, you know). But I'll keep that advice for my next book!

The book is online now. Next time, I'll start directly with Sigil from Scratch.

Many thanks for your help!

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Le_Sparte

Oups, sorry, I've missed the notifications about this thread.

Hi everybody.

Many thanks for your answers. I agree with everything. Having three pages numbered with 1,2,3 chapter-titles is really ugly. That's exactly why I tried to get rid of it. For sure, we're on an emerging market here. I think (hope?) it's a problem of brave pioneers.

Sadly Hitch, I'll have to let your 0.2$ advice to some other authors out there. I'm not really fond of naming each chapter (at least for the kind of book I'm writing). I can understand it stimulates imagination, but for me, it produces the exact opposite effect. Cormac McCarthy named his chapters in Blood Meridian and it ruined my reading (tastes, you know). But I'll keep that advice for my next book!

The book is online now. Next time, I'll start directly with Sigil from Scratch.

Many thanks for your help!

Well, the thing is, ugly or otherwise, Amazon certainly requires it, in that, while they'll allow the upload of a book without one, if one single reader complains, you'll get it back to add the TOC.

My suggestion about the names is simply that--a suggestion. {shrug}. Myself, when I see clever chapter names, I enjoy them. I personally find the 1,2,3 thing...well. 'Nuff 'said. If you end up with 4 pages of numbers, that's what you have, as that's what you wrote. I don't think anyone will castigate you for writing a long book. ;-) Although, who knows; we're dealing in an age of persons with the attention span of gerbils, so...

Hitch

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well, the thing is, ugly or otherwise, Amazon certainly requires it, in that, while they'll allow the upload of a book without one, if one single reader complains, you'll get it back to add the TOC.

My suggestion about the names is simply that--a suggestion. {shrug}. Myself, when I see clever chapter names, I enjoy them. I personally find the 1,2,3 thing...well. 'Nuff 'said. If you end up with 4 pages of numbers, that's what you have, as that's what you wrote. I don't think anyone will castigate you for writing a long book. ;-) Although, who knows; we're dealing in an age of persons with the attention span of gerbils, so...

Hitch

I agree, a List ( single column down) of 1,2 ... 189, 190 is absurd on a 5"+ screen
To bad Sigil can't offer some HTML TOC variations when the TOC labels are shorter than x :

  1 -     2 -     3 -     4 
 55 -   56 -   57 -   58
123 - 124 - 125 - 126

Or something simple that just wraps nice

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by theducks

I agree, a List ( single column down) of 1,2 ... 189, 190 is absurd on a 5"+ screen
To bad Sigil can't offer some HTML TOC variations when the TOC labels are shorter than x :

  1 -     2 -     3 -     4 
 55 -   56 -   57 -   58
123 - 124 - 125 - 126

Or something simple that just wraps nice

Well, Ducks:

Y'know, in the alternative, why not a variant on something we do at my shop? This isn't exactly the same, but why NOT do a shortened TOC? Why not do a TOC that says "Chaps 1-10, Chaps 11-20, (or whatever), etc., and then have a link to the first chapter in the series of 10 (or however many)? You could put the "full TOC" at the back of the book. Put a link in the shortened TOC, that only links to the first in each sequence, that says, at the top or bottom "Link to complete TOC." I'd even put a SRL link that says "Start Reading" which goes to Chapter 1. {shrug}. I mean...this ain't rocket surgery, as they say.

@Le_Sparte (BTW: anyone else notice that now when we use the traditional Net method of addressing people, the @, it's turned into a Twitter addy? How annoying.): Any reason something like that couldn't work for you? Use the "shortened" TOC for your Guide-linked TOC, so that's what people get from the Go To, and give them the option of gazing in wonder at your hundreds of TOC entries on some page in the back. Yes, it means if they want a specific chapter that isn't 10,20, 30 or whatever, they have to click twice (Go To, then the "Full TOC"), but...at least your LITB would be manageable, on a single screen/page. Whatcha think?

Hitch