US Judge orders Microsoft to hand over data stored in Ireland

[taustin]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Since the US isn't entitled to the data,

Under US law, it is. That's the conflict.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by taustin

Under US law, it is. That's the conflict.

If that's the case, then US law is wrong.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

If that's the case, then US law is wrong.

Is that just because, or do you have a reason for saying so?

Is US law "wrong" purely for disagreeing with other laws?

Are you sure you aren't really JSWolf?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by taustin

Under US law, it is. That's the conflict.

Where under US law does it say that the court has a right to information stored in the territory of another country?

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Is that just because, or do you have a reason for saying so?

What right does the US have to information stored on servers in a foreign nation?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

What right does the US have to information stored on servers in a foreign nation?

How does it violate US law?

When you start getting into "rights", the secret is there are no "rights". People have always done whatever they thought they could get away with, because they could mentally justify it, on every side and at every level of life. Except when some person/entity of greater power interferes. As nature would have it, might is right. (The US is winning, there. )

Right and wrong are objective concepts, and people are inherently not objective. G-d is objective. (Unless you don't believe in G-d, in which case... there is no objective.)

G-d did not say "Thou shalt not demand data hosted in other countries".

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

How does it violate US law?

The info isn't stored on US soil.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

The info isn't stored on US soil.

What is your point? According to US law, apparently, it has the right to data not on US soil.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

What is your point? According to US law, apparently, it has the right to data not on US soil.

My point is; if this is the law, then it's wrong. It'll get shot down.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Where under US law does it say that the court has a right to information stored in the territory of another country?

The order wasn't issued against the information, it was issued against Microsoft, which most certainly is subject to US courts. (Aside from laws that say exactly that, but again, the real conflict isn't between Microsoft and the US government, it's between US law and Irish law, a point that Microsoft is trying to force the US prosecutors to admit.)

[taustin]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

My point is; if this is the law, then it's wrong. It'll get shot down.

US laws that folks like you say violate the sovereignty of other countries have not been shot down yet, in any court that can reasonably judge US law - US courts.

What makes it a valid order is that the US court has the ability and authority to punish Microsoft for violating the order.

What creates the conflict is that the Irish courts have the ability and authority to punish Microsoft for obeying the order.

Microsoft has assets and employees in both countries. The laws of the two countries conflict, or at least, this legal (under US law) order conflicts with Irish law (in Microsoft's opinion). There are political issues that go far beyond this case, and they are important. Pretending otherwise will not help anyone.

This isn't rocket science. I've explained it using small words multiple times. You are apparently uninterested in anything but pontificating about how evil the US is, and nothing else. And, hey, it's a free country, pontificate away.

Just don't expect to be taken seriously when you're ignoring everything everybody else says.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by taustin

The order wasn't issued against the information, it was issued against Microsoft, which most certainly is subject to US courts. (Aside from laws that say exactly that, but again, the real conflict isn't between Microsoft and the US government, it's between US law and Irish law, a point that Microsoft is trying to force the US prosecutors to admit.)

Then this ruling would also apply to physical records stored in filing cabinets and safe deposit boxes in Ireland that are under Microsoft's control?

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by taustin

This isn't rocket science. I've explained it using small words multiple times. You are apparently uninterested in anything but pontificating about how evil the US is, and nothing else. And, hey, it's a free country, pontificate away.

Just don't expect to be taken seriously when you're ignoring everything everybody else says.

What part of "I think this law is wrong" don't you understand? That has nothing to do with the law being currently legal. All laws are legal until they get changed.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

What part of "I think this law is wrong" don't you understand? That has nothing to do with the law being currently legal. All laws are legal until they get changed.

Our disagreement stems from when you said:

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Since the US isn't entitled to the data, MS has no choice but to refuse and appeal to a higher court.

Which is clearly wrong incorrect -- the US is entitled.

You want to argue that the US shouldn't have been entitled, be my guest... but then you should've said so.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Which is clearly wrong -- the US is entitled.

You want to argue that the US shouldn't have been entitled, be my guest... but then you should've said so.

My mistake. It should've read "in my opinion". I leave that out at times when it's what I meant. I'll make a concerted effort to preface my future statements with an IMO.