How do you feel about DRM?

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Please watch out with statements like that.

Spindlegirl's postcount is just a third of your's, but her karma is almost 7 times higher. It seems she often says things that hold some value, at least in other people's eyes.

My account is even worse. With only around 1/10th the number of posts compared to you, I should be considered an even "newer" newbie, but even so, my Karma score is 3 times higher than your's already, and my account being two years older.

Watch out for the numbers on forums, because they're just like statistics: often wrong, and many times useless to base statements on.

(And that's all I'll ever say about it, lest I turn into the dreaded wannabe-moderator.)

Thank you. Karma points coming your way.

For me, it's not even really about squatter's rights. It didn't actually occur to me to look at a person's join date as being really relevant to anything.

I simply post what I think, and that is that.

I've been on line for a long time, met my husband on line in 94 on a dialup modem, and still actually use IRC (and although I consider that "old fashioned" net wise, there are people who could out age me with their bbs talk)

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Guess I need to watch it. As for karma, karma reflects popularity -and my opinion on this matter isn't popular. You might want to at least consider that popular doesn't mean right.

No, popularity is not always "right". Far from it, often.

Actually, I agree with both of our 1. and 2. statements, that DRM makes sure that there is no casual copying and that it is needed for the lending mechanism. You are completely correct, and that's what DRM is originally intended for.

But... There's always a "but".

That same DRM also creates loads and loads of hassle for legal purchasers switching devices, and therefore, possibly formats. There is no *** way the Adobe Digital Editions tells you how to de-authorize a device or computer. There's no menu option! Say someone has a PC, a notebook, a reader, and a tablet. That are 4 devices. Then they get phone and authorize it too, and the notebook breaks and gets replaced.

There you are: 6 devices authorized. And then you switch readers and can't authorize the 7th. And nowhere can be found how to de-authorize an old device, an no clue is given that you even can.

You can de-authorize a computer using the non-shown CRTL+Shift+D option, but the computer has to be working (and the notebook just broke, remember)? I don't even know if you can de-authorize a broken reader without calling Adobe.

Should I call Adobe, when I cannot read my book, as it's their DRM and software? Or should I call the publisher, as they implemented the Adobe DRM? Or the store, as they sold me the book? Or maybe should I call the store where I got my reader? Confusion galore.

And this, making you dependant on the publisher / DRM-provider *forever*, and the resulting possible confusion and even loss of material if you can't solve the problem (or no one will help you to solve it for whatever reason), is what makes DRM evil.

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

there are people who could out age me with their bbs talk)

BBS? Oh dear. I haven't even experienced that. I've been online since '97 (since internet became affordable for "normal people", in The Netherlands....) That BBS-stuff must have been 80's or maybe even 70's stuff.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Hey, I didn't mean to diminish or disrespect your opinion. Your opinion is after all the majority opinion around here (indeed most people here simply view it as revealed truth ). I was just suggesting some options that would add variety and reflect another, albeit unpopular viewpoint. And to me, you are a newbie. Sorry if my post made you feel diminished.

It seemed you were trying to present me as someone whose opinion didn't matter due to my join date and the pet topics I discuss. Just because I can recognize someone's attempts to discredit my personal experience or opinions, doesnt mean they have succeeded, so no apology really necessary.

I don't worry about join date or anything, What I prefer as a consumer is what I prefer as a consumer.

You are free to make a poll of your own if you like.

Library DRM has been discussed, embraced, and even praised by me, in this thread, by this "newbie" who based her entire decision of which eReader to purchase around the ability to use the library.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

No, popularity is not always "right". Far from it, often.

Actually, I agree with both of our 1. and 2. statements, that DRM makes sure that there is no casual copying and that it is needed for the lending mechanism. You are completely correct, and that's what DRM is originally intended for.

But... There's always a "but".

That same DRM also creates loads and loads of hassle for legal purchasers switching devices, and therefore, possibly formats. There is no *** way the Adobe Digital Editions tells you how to de-authorize a device or computer. There's no menu option! Say someone has a PC, a notebook, a reader, and a tablet. That are 4 devices. Then they get phone and authorize it too, and the notebook breaks and gets replaced.

There you are: 6 devices authorized. And then you switch readers and can't authorize the 7th. And nowhere can be found how to de-authorize an old device, an no clue is given that you even can.

You can de-authorize a computer using the non-shown CRTL+Shift+D option, but the computer has to be working (and the notebook just broke, remember)? I don't even know if you can de-authorize a broken reader without calling Adobe.

Should I call Adobe, when I cannot read my book, as it's their DRM and software? Or should I call the publisher, as they implemented the Adobe DRM? Or the store, as they sold me the book? Or maybe should I call the store where I got my reader? Confusion galore.

And this, making you dependant on the publisher / DRM-provider *forever*, and the resulting possible confusion and even loss of material if you can't solve the problem (or no one will help you to solve it for whatever reason), is what makes DRM evil.

Well, if your point is that DRM inconveniences the innocent consumer, then you are correct. The point is that ALL security measures inconvenience the innocent consumer . Complying with TSA security measures inconveniences more people, every day, than DRM has ever inconvenienced , I reckon. Yet we put up with it because the alternative- being blown out of the sky by a suicide bomber - is much worse.
We don't even have to go that far-PASSWORDS inconvenience me because I have to keep track of umpteen impossible to remember passwords. So lets lay it out there-security measures, by their very nature , are going to inconvenience the innocent consumer .
Now, there is in principle, no reason why DRM has to be as inconvenient as it now is. You could have one universal DRM that works across all devices and formats with one portable log in that you could take with you as you migrate from one platform to another. Indeed, the much maligned Adobe DRM partially accomplishes that.
But to get to that universal login DRM you first have to at least have people acknowledge that protecting the IP rights of content creators deserve some modicum of effective protection, even if it inconveniences some consumers. Lots of folks here reject that initial proposition(while paying lip service to the idea that piracy is kinda sorta bad).
Even with a universal DRM you aren't going to get a Nirvana where NO techie consumer is ever inconvenienced. But we could do better.
How do we get to a universal DRM. D****ed if I know. I dream that the Obama Administration would order Amazon, Apple, and Adobe into a room and tell them to come up with one universal scheme or else it'll push through a law stripping all DRM protection. May be we need to OCCUPY the FCC

[sabredog]

The issue is that DRM DOES NOT protect IP of an author. Far from it, as it is removed as soon as the ebook is available for sale.

It does not matter diddly squat if a buyer removes the DRM to format shift, for long term storage or it is removed by a file sharer. IT IS removed!

DRM is the agency publishers security blanket. While they cuddle it, they can ignore the reality of the outside world. Ask Hatchette.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by sabredog

The issue is that DRM DOES NOT protect IP of an author. Far from it, as it is removed as soon as the ebook is available for sale.

It does not matter diddly squat if a buyer removes the DRM to format shift, for long term storage or it is removed by a file sharer. IT IS removed!

DRM is the agency publishers security blanket. While they cuddle it, they can ignore the reality of the outside world. Ask Hatchette.

DRM should not be on books that are for a personal sale.

I don't mind the DRM in library books since the whole idea is that my reading for any title borrowed is for the time on my card. I don't care, as they can have it back when my time is up, or even before if I either am done with it faster or didn't like it.

This is why for the most part, I borrow or read free or low cost e-books, but will buy printed books. There is so much less legal hassle with the things.

I keep reading articles about how e-books are not "special snowflakes". I have yet to see a publisher act like it. They stick DRM as the final attempt at a stranglehold, yet I have freely and legally been able to pass my paper copy of "The Curious incident of the dog in the night time around to dozens of people.

Yes, if I am handing out a physical book i am not making a copy.... I don't consider that book so unmemorable that I quickly forget my experience with that book just because my father in law is now reading it. Plus, he can hand it back to me when he's done, and we can actually legally keep handing that same copy back and forth til kingdom come.

I have actually more sharing legality with one paper book than I do for PERSONAL use (and no intent of sharing with anyone) of one DRM infected book.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

DRM should not be on books that are for a personal sale.

I don't mind the DRM in library books since the whole idea is that my reading for any title borrowed is for the time on my card. I don't care, as they can have it back when my time is up, or even before if I either am done with it faster or didn't like it.

This is why for the most part, I borrow or read free or low cost e-books, but will buy printed books. There is so much less legal hassle with the things.

I keep reading articles about how e-books are not "special snowflakes". I have yet to see a publisher act like it. They stick DRM as the final attempt at a stranglehold, yet I have freely and legally been able to pass my paper copy of "The Curious incident of the dog in the night time around to dozens of people.

Yes, if I am handing out a physical book i am not making a copy.... I don't consider that book so unmemorable that I quickly forget my experience with that book just because my father in law is now reading it. Plus, he can hand it back to me when he's done, and we can actually legally keep handing that same copy back and forth til kingdom come.

I have actually more sharing legality with one paper book than I do for PERSONAL use (and no intent of sharing with anyone) of one DRM infected book.

Actually, sabre dog is simply wrong about that . DRM does prevent technologically unsophisticated consumers from sharing ebooks across networks of families and friends. in that way, DRM protects against lost sales. It doesn't protect against the technologically sophisticated pirate , but it does stop the teenager from emailing copies of the latest Twilight book to all her Facebook friends .
" Sharing" an ebook is different than lending your copy of a pbook to your father in law. Without DRM, you could go a lot further than "sharing " an ebook with one person - with a click of the mouse , you could "share " a unprotected ebook with everyone on this forum , while keeping a copy for yourself. Now of course, you protest that YOU wouldn't do that-but there are lots of people who would.
Purveyors of goods have found, through bitter experience, that they cannot profitably offer goods for sale on the assumption of universal honesty of their clientele. The retailer who doesn't secure his goods is the retailer who soon ends up out of business. It is the retailer who doesn't "trust the customer" who lives to sell another day.
You are right- ebooks aren't "special snowflakes" . The law applies to them as much as it does to any other property offered for sale. Unfortunately, it is much, much easier to distribute unlimited copes of an ebook than it is to distribute lots of copies of pbooks- yet it hurts the author just as much.
I acknowledged that DRM is imperfect-yet no protection whatsoever is even less perfect, n'est-ce pas ?.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by stonetools

" Sharing" an ebook is different than lending your copy of a pbook to your father in law. Without DRM, you could go a lot further than "sharing " an ebook with one person - with a click of the mouse , you could "share " a unprotected ebook with everyone on this forum , while keeping a copy for yourself. Now of course, you protest that YOU wouldn't do that-but there are lots of people who would.
[/I].

You are contradicting yourself. Those people that DO want to SHARE ebooks widely or upload are among the ones who have no trouble removing DRM. Yes, by having DRM you will sell a few more copies in the beginning (as people have to re-buy when a family member or close friend wants to read a book you already have), but you are seriously annoying paying customers. And you lose selling opportunities that come through sharing within a limited circle (people get to know new authors, etc).

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Actually, sabre dog is simply wrong about that . DRM does prevent technologically unsophisticated consumers from sharing ebooks across networks of families and friends. in that way, DRM protects against lost sales. It doesn't protect against the technologically sophisticated pirate , but it does stop the teenager from emailing copies of the latest Twilight book to all her Facebook friends.

Well, maybe, for a while, until that teenager decides that she *wants* to email copies of the latest Twilight book to all her Facebook friends. At that point, she, or any "technologically unsophisticated consumer" is only a technologically sophisticated friend and brief tutorial away from removing DRM at a click.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by Joykins

Well, maybe, for a while, until that teenager decides that she *wants* to email copies of the latest Twilight book to all her Facebook friends. At that point, she, or any "technologically unsophisticated consumer" is only a technologically sophisticated friend and brief tutorial away from removing DRM at a click.

Exactly.

There are also plenty of easy to follow de-DRM tutorials accessed by a simple Google search.

[Beryll Snyder]

Originally Posted by Joykins

Well, maybe, for a while, until that teenager decides that she *wants* to email copies of the latest Twilight book to all her Facebook friends. At that point, she, or any "technologically unsophisticated consumer" is only a technologically sophisticated friend and brief tutorial away from removing DRM at a click.

Maybe you are right, maybe not.
Sounds plausile at least.
The vast majority of customers though just buys the books and reads them, not even being aware what DRM is or how it works.
What seems to be the hottest topic here may be completey irrelevant elsewhere.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by Beryll Snyder

Maybe you are right, maybe not.
Sounds plausile at least.
The vast majority of customers though just buys the books and reads them, not even being aware what DRM is or how it works.
What seems to be the hottest topic here may be completey irrelevant elsewhere.

Until they find they cannot buy the latest release from their favourite author, finding it geo-restricted but find said ebook available at another estore in another format. Then they start asking questions or Google searching.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Beryll Snyder

Maybe you are right, maybe not.
Sounds plausile at least.
The vast majority of customers though just buys the books and reads them, not even being aware what DRM is or how it works.
What seems to be the hottest topic here may be completey irrelevant elsewhere.

Blissful ignorance that will bite those people in the behind sooner or later. When their spouse can't read the book or when they switch to a different brand of reader. The seller going bankrupt, etc.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by stonetools

.
" Sharing" an ebook is different than lending your copy of a pbook to your father in law.

Exactly. Even sharing said e-book with myself. I have no interest in mailing an ebook to my father in law. I just want unlimited personal use, out of the "box", so to speak.

[Sweetpea]

DRM doesn't bother me, I'll remove it once I encounter it. If I can't remove it, I'll keep my money in my pocket instead of handing it over to the one that actually thinks DRM has a purpose.