Piracy: And the impressions the publishing industry hold of e-books/ers.

[Riocaz]

This isn't relevant to the thread going on in the "Why I like the Iliad" thread, so though I would split it off.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...4&postcount=16

Originally Posted by Me

iRex have just had a similar incident (though to another network/channel), and also removed the link once it was reported. As said there, if we want the iLiad to succeed (which I certainly do, even if I am annoyed with them) giving publishers the impression that iLiad users are all pirates is not going to help in the slightest.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=17

Originally Posted by Bob

I think that the more publishers learn about e-book replays, the more likely that they will understand it's a very very small minority who pirate books. And that there are a huge majority of users that are frustrated by the rediculous efforts required to get an e-book in usable form for the long run.

I agree that it's a very small minority, out there. who pirate books. I remember a recent article (teleread) which claimed that the vast majority of pirated books were sci-fi/fantasy (with romance being next on the list if memory serves)

But I do feel that the problem will be more the impression that publishers have of e-book readers and the devices. Once the publishers have the impression that all e-book readers are theives, then it will be very hard to shake them out of that mindset.

I suspect that places such as mobileread/teleread/irex and their forums will come under a great deal of scrutiny over the coming months. And it's there that the publishers will take note of the people openly claiming to be reading pirated books.

An analogy would be the height of game piracy on the Amiga format. When games companies started moving much more towards the consoles more and more with the reason that that diddn';t bring out amiga versions because they couldn't afford the piracy.

Do we want to give the impression that the only option for publishers is to go with Sony's DRM because people using the iLiad won't pay for content?!?! (OK extreme example I admit).

Originally Posted by Bob

(There are also, of course, many who will even go out and buy a hardcover or paperback to try to make payment in the best way they know how, and then scan or find another copy of the e-book. But a lot just don't buy the ebooks, or will never buy a DRM book.)

I know, I'm one of them. Once I have my bookshelves back-up (as the majority of my books are packed in cardboard boxes ready to be moved when I find a house) I fully intend to get myself electronic copies of them, at the moment I am limiting myself to the Baen free library, manybooks, and selected downloads of books I am 100% sure I definatly own.

I am aware it's skirting the letter of the law (Ok breaking the law entirely) but I don't intend to (and will not) share electronic copies with anyone. And as I own the original paper books I suspect any lawsuit would be laughed out of court.

"Wait, so he actually owns the book you claim he pirated?"
"yes m'lud!"
"And he paid for the book?"
"Yes m'lud!"
"And he hasn't shared his copy of the book with anyone else, it's just for his personal use?"
"So he claims, and we can't find any evidence to the contrary, m'lud!"

[deadite66]

it's always the same story, publishers too slow to push themselves into the market.
doing deals like amazon/mobipocket may have done will get people to warez books onto their device.

[Riocaz]

Yes, but we have a window of oppertunity now, because of the industry hype over the iLiad and the reader, to give the correct impression that as we as a group are not theives.

People posting links to places where you can find them, here, on TeleRead, or the iRex forum can only re-inforce the wrong mindset.

(Just re-read that, I diddn't mean to imply that Deadite had done so. I know he diddn't, I am just re-inforcing my point)

[bingle]

Originally Posted by Riocaz

But I do feel that the problem will be more the impression that publishers have of e-book readers and the devices. Once the publishers have the impression that all e-book readers are theives, then it will be very hard to shake them out of that mindset.

I'm not so sure about that. Look at MP3s for an example - initially, the only MP3s one could find were pirated, and the vast majority of digital music listeners were pirates (more people than you'd think, also...)

Now, of course, iTunes and the iPod are the shining example of a killer product combination.

If publishers are smart, they'll realize that, while there's a lot of piracy going on, the pirates represent their untapped market, not their enemy. If they can offer a compelling value proposition, many people will cease pirating and instead buy books.

[Riocaz]

There is a difference there in that there had always been an element of piracy in msic (copying tapes, recording from the radio etc etc). Books are a little different and I'm unsure if the publishers will be able to see the "untapped market" if they are constantly having this view of "ebookers are pirates" being pushed in their faces.

[VillageReader]

Well, this 'pirate' with an Iliad has spent approximately $180 at Fictionwise and purchased 2 digital magazine subscriptions to read on the Iliad.

Yes, I take advantage of 'free' when it is available and legal. There is a difference between free and theft.

[tribble]

Well, i dont think i will buy ebooks as long as they are as expensive as they are now.

On the other hand i do pirate books. Well, kind of.
I just downloaded a copy of the latest Robert Jordan Wheel of Time book and i am reading it on the iLiad. I would like it to have the nice chapter icons and a better layout and not a pagenumber and headline in between every couple of pages, but hey, at least i have it on my iLiad.
Or am i not a pirat (at least i dont feel like one), because i do have the hardcover version of the book on my bookshelf.

As for sci-fi/fantasy beeing pirated most, i would think so, because all the computer geeks read sci-fi

And i have to say, here in germany, movie pirates are called "raubkopierer" and the film industrie is criminalizing the movie theft in a major way. The term "raub" alone is used in legal context only if you steal stuff from someone with weapons force or the threat to do physical harm.
I hope the bookindustry is smarter than that and just offers what the customer wants.

[VillageReader]

I think a publisher would have a difficult case proving 'piracy' if you own a copy of a book and locate a different format to read it in.

You are a better customer than a library patron (did I mention I use the library, too?).

[tribble]

Yes, but what about those, who go to the library, rent a book, and grab a copy from the net to read it on the iLiad and then delete the ebook, before they return the pbook to the library???

[Riocaz]

Tribble, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. We know the majority of us arn't pirates. My point is that the minority may cause an impression that we are by posting links to places you can find them on the foremost forums.

Yes, but what about those, who go to the library, rent a book, and grab a copy from the net to read it on the iLiad and then delete the ebook, before they return the pbook to the library???

And I think if they have the energy/time to do all that, they need to get a 2nd job to just buy the damg books :-)

[VillageReader]

Originally Posted by tribble

Yes, but what about those, who go to the library, rent a book, and grab a copy from the net to read it on the iLiad and then delete the ebook, before they return the pbook to the library???

Well, since the Cleveland library already has e-books, all that needs solved is DRM

[Mambo]

Don't you know that you are criminals? We are criminals with a high IQ so that we don't steal money no more but books.
I heard that the police has arrested a group of people hiding in a cellar and reading stolen books.

Sorry for these bad jokes...

I don't think that the community is made up of people who are pirates or guilty in stealing books. Unfortunately our reader device can not provide us yet legal content, but we have to live with it as it is. Not using it would be a bigger crime to the mankind.
As long as the desired book is not available for the particular ereader, you are using, you are not guilty, if you get it from somewhere else, because you have no other choice. I think the publishing industry is for us and not we are for them. They have to comply with our needs first, because we are the customers, I guess.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Mambo

I don't think that the community is made up of people who are pirates or guilty in stealing books. Unfortunately our reader device can not provide us yet legal content, but we have to live with it as it is. Not using it would be a bigger crime to the mankind.
As long as the desired book is not available for the particular ereader, you are using, you are not guilty, if you get it from somewhere else, because you have no other choice. I think the publishing industry is for us and not we are for them. They have to comply with our needs first, because we are the customers, I guess.

Right. The old ideas of "the customer is always right" has gone by the wayside. The idea that the Content Cartel works by is "The customer will want what we tell them they want" and it isn't working.

The reason eBook piracy is out there is the same reason that music piracy is there: the industry refuses to listen to the customers and change their business models to satisfy the market that exists.

[ultim8fury]

Once there is a viable alternative to piracy a lot of people will take that option.

It's very much a chicken and egg situation.

Until this new wave of e-ink devices settles down and is shown to be a growth market, publishers will hold back on the content. But in order to sell the devices to the mass audience you need a solid catalogue and probably a common format for people to get behind.

Until that starts to happen the easiest way to populate a device with content is going to be through piracy. Just as is was with early MP3 players.

Personally I had no MP3s until I bought my first iPod because I had no use for them. Similarly I had no e-books until I knew about Sony's device coming out. I then rebuilt most of my P-book library in e-book form. I would like to think Sony will extend their Connect store to my country so I can continue to purchase books legally in a form that is designed for my device. Until that happens I'm very limited in where I can legally obtain content that will work on my chosen device so I am forced to look elsewhere.

The iliad IMO has an even worse time of it. With no native DRM and no associated store it appears to me that your choice of content can only ever be non-DRM stuff which limits you as much as the lack of a CONNECT store in the UK limits me.

I see the e-book industry as still trying to get it's feet despite it's age. The hardware has never really been in place before to truly support an e-book environment so therefore the publishing has always been limited. That may well start to change with the likes of Sony, amazon, iRex etc launching e-ink devices. Only time will tell.

[k2r]

IANAL, but in Germany the situation is like this:

It is illegal to download a pdf-book to read on your iliad if the author (directly or indirectly) does not allow you to do so.
It is still illegal to "buy" a drm-encumbered lit-book and convert it to pdf to read on your iliad if the author (directly or indirectly) does not allow you to do so.

So: Which illegal option do you choose? The one where they take your money but still threaten to sue you or the one where they just threaten to sue you?

#!chris

(of course you could still buy a book, take it apart, scan it and throw the physical book away. Might be an interesting business model, you buy your book at my store and I'll scan it and give you the pdf (and maybe the physical book, too) I have to do the numbers on that and ask a lawyer :-) )