Amazon against the rest, or where to get your books

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by rhadin

...Amazon's reach is dominant only in the United States...

Dominant in the UK as well.
Of the markets that Amazon is actively targeting, by running a local Kindle store, which are they dominant in vs not?

[Kumabjorn]

The fact that Amazon is willing to ship (sync) to the rest of the world is a huge impetus for many people outside the US.

[pagansoul]

Most of my ebooks are stripped of DRM and stored as both EPUB and MOBI in Calibre. So far I'm at about 2000 with about half off public domain libraries. I tend to buy books in collections like Amazon's Ed McBain sale (35 @ $1 each) or 100 TOR for free or Ebay and just load them up. I tend to clean stuff up in Text Edit if there are conversion problems. Do I expect EPUB and MOBI to last forever, no, but I don't expect to be around in another 50 years and do not care.

[Adele Ward]

As a publisher and as a reader I'm going along with Amazon at the moment because we have to due to their high sales. But in the long term I think ePub is more important and we're going that route too. ePub lets us sell on our own website, authors can sell on their websites, I have talks with various organisations who can sell our ePub ebooks, major bookshops can sell our ePub ebooks, and this is really going to grow enormously this year, in my opinion.

All the signs are there judging by the contacts I'm getting privately as a publisher and I'm going to meetings this very week with the most likely canditates to sell and lend our ePub books. I won't stop selling our books on Kindle and reading books on Kindle. I have a Kindle and love it. But the future will involve ePub as it gets round serious problems.

The serious problems are these. We can't sell Kindle books to large parts of the world where we have a following and Kindles can't be made available for some reason (this includes Malaysia and surrounding region). ePub can. We don't have to sign exclusivity clauses with other online sellers and libraries that are setting up for ePub. Amazon tries to lock us in with exclusivity clauses if we want to use some of their promotional services like KDP Select. These services are also badly organised as they mix giving away free ebooks (which isn't a good idea for our authors straight after their print book launch as it looks like we're offloading hard-to-sell books), with the lending library - which is a service I would like to be involved in. However, to be in the library we mustn't sell anywhere else, which is totally unacceptable. It's all a bit of a mess for professional publishers, so we're definitely looking to support other methods.

It's easier for us to do ebook conversions well using ePub. Amazon hangs on to so much control with their proprietary system that little things go wrong with our poetry formatting, and poetry formatting is a very precise thing. Little formatting errors creep in once we upload, even though our conversion seems perfect. It's mainly to do with the way long lines in poetry have to indent slightly if they run over, so that the reader knows it's all the same line. There is a correct way to convert it for ebooks, but the formatting errors still creep in after uploading, and this isn't professional enough.

Amazon makes it hard for us to give competitive prices due to the large commission they take - which is a minimum of 30%, can sometimes be 65% in certain countries (and we have a following in those countries so it affects us). They can even pay us nothing if they find a competitive price. No bookseller does this to us except Amazon. A bookshop only charges a 30% markup on books we supply direct, and they have the cost of premises and limited shelf space to take into consideration.

So the Amazon mark-up on prices isn't something we're happy with. Being able to sell and lend books on ePub on more websites is highly desirable. It will take off and I'm pretty sure this is the year it's going to happen quickly.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by Adele Ward

As a publisher and as a reader I'm going along with Amazon at the moment because we have to due to their high sales. But in the long term I think ePub is more important and we're going that route too. ePub lets us sell on our own website, authors can sell on their websites, I have talks with various organisations who can sell our ePub ebooks, major bookshops can sell our ePub ebooks, and this is really going to grow enormously this year, in my opinion.

(Emphasis mine.)

You can sell mobi files on your web site too. Amazon only has a stranglehold on the DRM, not the format. Plenty of sites sell drm-free mobi. If you plan to sell independently, it would make sense to offer both of the most common formats, not just epub. Just my two cents as an ebook consumer.

[Katsunami]

In the end, it's always the drm that is the biggest threat to losing material because you are dependent on the source forever. Compare it with computers. How many scanners, printers, sound cards and so on, that work basically fine, end up on the scrap heap because manufacturers refuse to write drivers for the latest Windows versions? The Windows driver basically is the 'drm' for these devices, through which manufacturers force you to upgrade after you upgrade Windows.

Compare that to Linux. Drivers are still the main Achilles heel. Too many devices don't work because manufacturers don't want to provide drivers or specifications. Therefore, the drivers for Linux are almost always behind the times. But here's the cracker: if it works, then it will work *forever*, because the driver is maintained together with the latest version if the operating system (kernel).

Basically *everything* out there is running some version of Linux, or another Unix(-alike) such as FreeBsd. Windows mainly runs on desktops / laptops, apart from a limited number of phones and servers. Why isn't Linux used more often on desktops then, with ask it's open advantages? It's because Windows is just too big on desktops, and desktops are what people need. Because of the power of Windows, most manufacturers work only with, and for Windows, leading to the fact that I now HAVE to use Windows, because I NEED some programs of which there is only a Windows version.

Do I have problems with Windows? No, far from it. But, I like the philosophy of Linux / Unix much more, and would prefer to use that. However, doing so would make me largely incompatible with other people I *have* to work with.

And what does it have to do with ebooks?

Simple. We've got a huge market force (Amazon, at this moment), that can get into the dominating position Microsoft is in. If that happens, all publishers will go there. Then, it could easily be perceived that Amazon will release a Kindle with no memory, but an always on internet connection, leaving you to download the book page by page as you read it. That would be the strictest drm ever.

You know? In the computer world it has already happened. Adobe, being the only relevant graphics company left (imho) is pushing it's software subscription services. No internet, no Photoshop. Some games have an always on connection, and download their maps as you play.

So beware... I will. If I see the ebook world moving in that direction any further (and epub3 is already a step toward it), then I'll be ditching the ereader as quickly as I got it, just as I will be ditching Photoshop after The Gimp implements the few functions I need it to have to be a Photoshop replacement. If that happens, and the other two programs I need get a viable alternative (or are not necessary because I change jobs), then I'll move over to an open operating system too.

Beware the drm, and beware the problem of creating one omnipresent, all-powerful party, be it Microsoft, Amazon, or any other....

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

In the end, it's always the drm that is the biggest threat to losing material because you are dependent on the source forever. Compare it with computers. How many scanners, printers, sound cards and so on, that work basically fine, end up on the scrap heap because manufacturers refuse to write drivers for the latest Windows versions? The Windows driver basically is the 'drm' for these devices, through which manufacturers force you to upgrade after you upgrade Windows.

That is a stretch.

Compare that to Linux. Drivers are still the main Achilles heel. Too many devices don't work because manufacturers don't want to provide drivers or specifications. Therefore, the drivers for Linux are almost always behind the times. But here's the cracker: if it works, then it will work *forever*, because the driver is maintained together with the latest version if the operating system (kernel).

It will work for as long as someone is bothered to maintain the driver.
At some point, if someone cannot be found to maintain it, and it breaks as a result of another change, it will be dropped.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

That is a stretch.

No, it isn't. I've worked for several helpdesks in the past, for very big manufacturers. You *don't* want to know how many times I needed to tell a customer "No Sir, I am sorry. There will not be a new driver to support this device under this new Windows version." Some of those devices were only a year old. Most of the time, the resulting answer was: "Then I will *never* buy a ..... device again!" Sadly, all manufacturers do the same.

Not writing a new driver, is akin to dropping the use of an older file format on a new device, or dropping the service for drm'ed products. In all cases, you lose access to your device or data. Sometimes, you lose access to the data because the device can't be used. Not because it's defective, but because the manufacturer decided that it was too old to be of use and stopped supporting it.

It's called "planned obsolescence", and it's the one thing I'm afraid of with regard to ebooks (and any other digital data such as pictures and music).

It will work for as long as someone is bothered to maintain the driver.
At some point, if someone cannot be found to maintain it, and it breaks as a result of another change, it will be dropped.

Seeing that even quite some stuff from the nineties still works (I recently installed a scanner from 1998 on the latest Fedora for someone, from a company that doesn't even exist anymore), I fancy that this doesn't happen too often, save for very old devices.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Do I have problems with Windows? No, far from it. But, I like the philosophy of Linux / Unix much more, and would prefer to use that. However, doing so would make me largely incompatible with other people I *have* to work with.

And what does it have to do with ebooks?

Do you like the philosophy of free when you say linux? You know, you don't have to run open source software on linux, you can but you don't have to. If you like it because of open-source, more power to you. Ebooks? If you like the philosophy of free, and I am not talking about DRM-free, but public domain - then you have choices. Literally so many choices that you will never be able to read em all. If you strip DRM from a book that is sold only with DRM, because the author so chooses, then you still support the author. And don't be illusioned by the thought that only because you would never distribute a un-drmed book, that others won't. You want a book that has DRM, you either choose Amazon which you don't like because they use mobi, or you choose Adobe which you also don't like because of Photoshop having more things than Gimp. OR, you choose not to get that book/author/series, forget about it, and search for a PD writer.

To clarify: By public domain writer I would also include older books where the copyright expired and they fell into public domain by default. Though technically they were not PD writers when they were alive.

[Ken Maltby]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Not writing a new driver, is akin to dropping the use of an older file format on a new device, or dropping the service for drm'ed products. In all cases, you lose access to your device or data. Sometimes, you lose access to the data because the device can't be used. Not because it's defective, but because the manufacturer decided that it was too old to be of use and stopped supporting it.

It's called "planned obsolescence", and it's the one thing I'm afraid of with regard to ebooks (and any other digital data such as pictures and music).

.

Actually this is an advantage for eBooks, we can update/change formats
to keep them usable. We are not dependent on any corporate decision to
support or not support them. An author need never again have his/her
works "out of print" because a publisher doesn't think they can wring any
more out of them.

Luck;
Ken

[Katsunami]

Ken: that is only true if you have the tools to recreate your book in the new format. A writer do that, possibly. A reader who bought the finished product mostly can't, unless the format is completely open.

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

You want a book that has DRM, you either choose Amazon which you don't like because they use mobi, or you choose Adobe which you also don't like because of Photoshop having more things than Gimp.

You should not be putting words into my mouth. I never said this. I don't dislike mobi. I don't dislike Amazon. Still I think that it's bad that such a big player feels the need to maintain a format all on their own, while all the rest of the world is using something different.

Also, I didn't say that I don't like Adobe, and didn't say that I don't like Photoshop because it has more features than Gimp. (I like, and own it, precisely because of that.) What I think is bad is that Adobe controls so many standards (or is one of the bigger players), and is using that power to enforce strict control, for example by trying to push Photoshop and their other products toward a monthly subscription service. (While there are alternatives, their programs are the default in most graphics related work; like it or not.)

Adobe presents the service as a feature and an advantage, but one year on that service costs the same as all the programs I now own. Then the cost continues, where it doesn't with my normally bought software. I buy it, and that's it.

What if Amazon, or Adobe, decides to stop Whispernet, the download cloud and/or drm-authentication, and moved to a page-by-page download "read-all-you-can" service, that would cost you $125 a month or so? Anyone who spends less than $125 a month on books, or does not have constant internet connection won't be happy and will be leaving, possibly losing all previously bought books if they didn't back them up.

And I *never* said I wanted anything for free either. I gladly pay, but after that, I don't want to have to do anything with the seller of the product, except when it breaks within warranty (which doesn't happen with books, of course).

[Ken Maltby]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Ken: that is only true if you have the tools to recreate your book in the new format. A writer do that, possibly. A reader who bought the finished product mostly can't, unless the format is completely open.

I intend to keep my copy of Calibre up to date with my ebook purchases.
Admittedly this won't help if an author I liked decided to go with an
exclusive contract that locked his works into a format that Calibre could
not read. Or if I were to fall on my head and decide to buy an
incompatible single format eReader. (Not providing any names here.)

Luck;
Ken

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

You should not be putting words into my mouth. I never said this. I don't dislike mobi. I don't dislike Amazon. Still I think that it's bad that such a big player feels the need to maintain a format all on their own, while all the rest of the world is using something different.

Then you should not leave too many possible interpretations open. You never said you disliked Amazon (in general), but you do not like certain business practices. They own mobi, they maintain it and want complete control over it. They like epub3 features, but possibly not all of them, and they want a enforceable spec for them. The only way they can do that is to modify it, make it their spec, and enforce it themselves since they have full control over it as there is no open spec for it.

Also, I didn't say that I don't like Adobe, [..] their programs are the default in most graphics related work; like it or not.

True. So keep the current version you have now and keep it safe.

Adobe presents the service as a feature and an advantage, but one year on that service costs the same as all the programs I now own. Then the cost continues, where it doesn't with my normally bought software. I buy it, and that's it.

As long as Adobe has enough paying customers, they will get away with murder (not literally, but metaphorically). IF you happen to be out, they won't be one bit sorry. IF they would loose 90% of their customers, they might reconsider.

What if Amazon, or Adobe, decides to stop Whispernet, [..]

Whatif? That is your paranoia speaking. Whispernet is a free service, no subscription, nothing. You get something for free, and you think it should stay free forever. Look at cell phone companies here in the US. It used to be (just last year) that you could get flat-rate unlimited internet access from about everybody. Today you have download/upload limits and very expensive overrage charges if you do go over your limit.

And I *never* said I wanted anything for free either. I gladly pay, but after that, I don't want to have to do anything with the seller of the product, except when it beaks within warranty (which doesn't happen with books, of course).

Your coin rules. Buy from Amazon as long as the tools exist to remove the drm, and to convert to a different format. Once you cannot do that any more, go elsewhere. Same with ePub. The ePub format itself won't (likely) be a problem, but the DRM. So once you cannot strip the DRM any more, stop buying from that shop. You already won't buy from the iBooks store, correct?

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by rhadin

I'm assuming that even with KF8 you'd have to strip the DRM first. Am I correct?

Yes, and Amazon could make DRM harder to circumvent for KF8 - since they don't have to support legacy devices. This has not happened yet so far as I know.

[Adele Ward]

Thanks for the tips. We certainly want to use both methods and I'll be talking to my business partner, as he does the ebook conversions. I wish I had more time to learn to do it myself.