Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > Writers' Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-23-2012, 08:24 AM   #16
DrNefario
Wizard
DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DrNefario ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DrNefario's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,095
Karma: 11315768
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch
Bad grammar is rude.

It's asking me, the reader, to do the work to figure out what you're trying to say, rather then you, the writer, writing it in a such a way as to make its meaning clear.

Less work for you, more work for me. As I say: rude.
DrNefario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 08:28 AM   #17
VydorScope
Wizard
VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
VydorScope's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,418
Karma: 35207650
Join Date: Jun 2011
Device: iPad
I think the real problem is that the rules of grammar are changing, and things that are acceptable now were not always so. This means some one using the older grammar rules reading modern text would say it is bad, when in fact it is not.

For example, the use of "shall" is almost completely gone from American English, so sentences where "shall" is the correct word we now use "will." This would be bad grammar under the previous understanding of what "will" is used for.

So, IMO, good grammar will always be important, just what that means will continue to shift like it always has.
VydorScope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 08:49 AM   #18
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,306
Karma: 43993832
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Sure, you're going to want to "break the rules" in passages of dialogue (nobody "speaks" grammatically correct English), but it's important to know what those rules are before you start breaking them.


So yes, "essential" is my vote.
That was one of my points too.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 08:55 AM   #19
GeckoFriend
Guru
GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GeckoFriend ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
GeckoFriend's Avatar
 
Posts: 614
Karma: 1164945
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: iPhone 7+, iPad Mini4, Kindle Voyage
Only if you want the average reader to read your book.
GeckoFriend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:00 AM   #20
LuvReadin
Addict
LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.LuvReadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 372
Karma: 1925568
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: England, UK
Device: Sony PRS-T1 and Cool-ER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
As I think most of us understood the above perfectly, I'd say following exacting grammar rules to be a bit outdated. I think the image below proves the same point with spelling.

No, not really - other versions of this point out that only 55 people out of 100 can read it. Although I'd question the figures, it has been shown that such images are legible only to good readers; poor readers struggle with them. It also depends on the language - English has relatively little redundancy, so it's still fairly easy to make out most words; a similar task with other languages, particularly Hebrew, is much more difficult. The basic premise behind this and other examples - that it doesn't matter about the order as long as the first and last letters are correct - has also been shown to be wrong:
http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/...vis/cmabridge/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
Spending most of my life in academia, I found waaaay too many people concerned more about grammar and spelling than about content. To me, that is just wrong on so many levels, and all too often wipes out that spark of desire to 'learn' that brings people to higher education in the first place.
That argument has been used for years to dumb down the UK education system; in recent years, the pendulum has swung back, and it's now recognised that having a good grounding in the basics of the language (preferably at a very young age, when children pick these things up very quickly) produces more imaginative work, because it then becomes what it should be - a mere tool, a way of communicating more effectively, rather than something that stymies people every time they try to string a sentence together.
LuvReadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:15 AM   #21
ApK
Award-Winning Participant
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,310
Karma: 67564074
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
Spending most of my life in academia, I found waaaay too many people concerned more about grammar and spelling than about content. To me, that is just wrong on so many levels, and all too often wipes out that spark of desire to 'learn' that brings people to higher education in the first place.


Stitchawl
I really think this is dangerously backward thinking.

Attention to detail is important. Care in one's work is important. Consideration of others is important. Appreciation of quality is important. Effective and clear communication is important.
And shooting for higher than barely acceptable minimums is important.

That's in all things, not just writing. But so much of what we do, both in academics, when we are supposed to be building foundations, and after, when we are supposed to be building on those foundations, depend on written communication that there there is no better place to both apply, and also demonstrate those things.

And yes, I also agree that's rude to demand your reader do the work of organizing and disambiguating your meaning when you should have done it ahead of time. It speaks volumes to the reader, be the reader a book customer, a judge, a teacher, a potential employer or potential client, or in fact anyone who will have to get to know you primarily through your verbal communications, which, unless you find your self in an Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden type situation, is just about everyone.

Also, while I think it may be noble of you, as a reader, to be willing to make the effort of weeding through bad grammar to get a point and not judge the writer harshly because it, it's not good to suggest to a writer that it's OK to take that approach.

ApK

Last edited by ApK; 04-23-2012 at 09:22 AM.
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:20 AM   #22
teh603
Autism Spectrum Disorder
teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
teh603's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,212
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Android Phone
Agreed, grammar is changing for good and bad. Everyone's got a story about "that guy" who turned in a paper written entirely in text message speak, and then there's my own personal gripe about block formatting and the death of the tab character.

That having been said, I'm not perfect either. I've always had trouble with "its" and "it's," so I tend to use the former exclusively. Maybe its because the teachers made such a big deal about it in school or something; sometimes the best way to make someone screw up is to get them to think about what they're doing.

The other one that annoys me is the whole argument about commas and quotation marks. People have told me that you have to bookend your quotes with commas, even when another punctuation mark (like a period or question mark) would be more appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
Spending most of my life in academia, I found waaaay too many people concerned more about grammar and spelling than about content. To me, that is just wrong on so many levels, and all too often wipes out that spark of desire to 'learn' that brings people to higher education in the first place.
I ran into the same type of people in high school (and middle school, and elementary school). You could fail a paper based on grammar and spelling alone, without any content issues. All those red "-1" marks can add up real quick.

Thankfully, I didn't run into it in college. People were more concerned about other things and grammar check wasn't one of them unless things got real bad. They were more concerned with papers that could pass turnitin.com and its plagarism check.
teh603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #23
Justin Nemo
Stercus accidit
Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Justin Nemo's Avatar
 
Posts: 330
Karma: 513878
Join Date: Mar 2012
Device: Nookpadle 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
Spending most of my life in academia, I found waaaay too many people concerned more about grammar and spelling than about content. To me, that is just wrong on so many levels, and all too often wipes out that spark of desire to 'learn' that brings people to higher education in the first place.


Stitchawl
Although I can agree with much of what you say and from my own experience know that when I am on a roll, I just go with it and correct errors later, I do think that the young should be taught good grammar at least once.

I can remember going to my daughter's school parents day. Looking through her English books her teacher had given her nine out of ten for a story she had written. When I questioned her teacher and pointed out that the essay was full of spelling mistakes and punctuation errors, I was told that they “Don't like to stifle the children's creativity.”!
Justin Nemo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:26 AM   #24
ApK
Award-Winning Participant
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,310
Karma: 67564074
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by teh603 View Post
sometimes the best way to make someone screw up is to get them to think about what they're doing.
It could be argued that you often must pass through conscious incompetence and conscious competence before you can get to unconscious competence, where you do it right without thinking about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:27 AM   #25
Stitchawl
Opsimath
Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Stitchawl ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Stitchawl's Avatar
 
Posts: 12,344
Karma: 187123287
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chiang Mai, Northern Thailand
Device: Sony PRS-650, iPhone 5, Kobo Glo, Sony PRS-350, iPad, Samsung Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvReadin View Post
No, not really - other versions of this point out that only 55 people out of 100 can read it. Although I'd question the figures, it has been shown that such images are legible only to good readers; poor readers struggle with them.
I have to disagree with that. My wife was able to read it, and her ability with English is marginal. I'd estimate that she understands less than 40% of spoken English.

Quote:
That argument has been used for years to dumb down the UK education system
In terms of content, does the ability to use a semi-colon correctly really have that much effect on the actual transference of information? How about ending a sentence with a preposition? Starting a sentence with 'but' or 'and.' Yes, I agree that it might be jarring to those who were brought up under a strict disciplinarian teacher who demanded students carry "Elements of Style" with them to class every day, but it certainly doesn't 'dumb down' the content.

While I would always make note a grammar or spelling mistake on student's papers, I never reduced grades because of them, especially at the University levels. To me, that's as bad as forcing a student to put up their hand and ask permission to go to the toilet.

Toilet training, or the academic equivalents, grammar and spelling, should be kept to the primary schools, after which, no one should pay attention to either good or bad usage. Focus should be on content. Spend more time on content learning and less on toilet training and there is less 'dumbing down' in the schools.

In my 'humble' opinion, that is.

Stitchawl
Stitchawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:31 AM   #26
Justin Nemo
Stercus accidit
Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Justin Nemo's Avatar
 
Posts: 330
Karma: 513878
Join Date: Mar 2012
Device: Nookpadle 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrNefario View Post
Bad grammar is rude.

It's asking me, the reader, to do the work to figure out what you're trying to say, rather then you, the writer, writing it in a such a way as to make its meaning clear.

Less work for you, more work for me. As I say: rude.
You just gave me work then, working out that you meant by rather then, rather than, rather than. Not easy is it?
Justin Nemo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:31 AM   #27
Rob Lister
Fanatic
Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rob Lister ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 532
Karma: 3293888
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Virginia
Device: Nook Simple Touch
Grammar is essential.

Split infinitives I'm okay with. Sentence-ending prepositions too, but just barely.

If I see a grammatical or spelling error in a book, I have to stop, find my red pen, and underline it.

This is quite troubling on a nook.

Rob Lister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:32 AM   #28
Justin Nemo
Stercus accidit
Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Justin Nemo ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Justin Nemo's Avatar
 
Posts: 330
Karma: 513878
Join Date: Mar 2012
Device: Nookpadle 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApK View Post
It could be argued that you often must pass through conscious incompetence and conscious competence before you can get to unconscious competence, where you do it right without thinking about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
Er... yeah what he said
Justin Nemo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:32 AM   #29
Steven Lyle Jordan
Grand Sorcerer
Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lyle Jordan's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,478
Karma: 5171130
Join Date: Jan 2006
Device: none
Maybe you've heard about the trend of youngsters who are now using keyboard-equipped smartphones taking the trouble to type their words and grammar correctly, to show off their phones and their writing prowess.

Resorting to textspeak is lazy and suggestive of a lack of education, and that is not lost on those who have to read it. Sure, if you're back-and-forthing about your latest school crush or the movie you just saw, it's no big deal. But in polite and formal situations, proper spelling and grammar are still expected: It marks them with friends and strangers as intelligent people who care about the things they write.

Bottom line: If you want people to think you have a brain, write properly.
Steven Lyle Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:38 AM   #30
ApK
Award-Winning Participant
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,310
Karma: 67564074
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
While I would always make note a grammar or spelling mistake on student's papers, I never reduced grades because of them, especially at the University levels.
If you are grading a science paper, I can almost understand and appreciate that (unless the grammar is actually bad enough to make the content unclear, which is far closer to what we're talking about than a misused semicolon [which I am utterly unclear about by the way...I never understood semicolons]).
If you are grading an English composition paper, I think you're doing the student, and society, a disservice.

Quote:
To me, that's as bad as forcing a student to put up their hand and ask permission to go to the toilet.

Toilet training, or the academic equivalents, grammar and spelling, should be kept to the primary schools, after which, no one should pay attention to either good or bad usage. Focus should be on content. Spend more time on content learning and less on toilet training and there is less 'dumbing down' in the schools.
To extend your analogy, you think teaching kids toilet training is important, but you see nothing wrong with a college student choosing to relieve himself in the middle of your classroom.

The lesson is valuable, but using the lesson in life is not?

ApK

Last edited by ApK; 04-23-2012 at 09:42 AM.
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seriously thoughtful English (or US) grammar Sweetpea Lounge 26 10-21-2011 10:17 PM
Kid's books and grammar ApK Reading Recommendations 21 06-21-2011 05:40 PM
What is the best free eBook for learning grammar please? erictoma Writers' Corner 2 12-03-2010 05:44 AM
Layout for grammar examples Man Eating Duck ePub 8 11-28-2010 05:28 AM
English Grammar books astrodad Reading Recommendations 16 08-17-2008 04:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:15 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.