Would you buy the print or the ebook for the same price?

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Sregener

There are people who value an eBook higher than a pBook, for portability and storability reasons. But I think they're the exception, not the rule.

Originally Posted by ApK

The current ebook and pbook market trends would suggest you are 180 degrees wrong.

No, they really don't.
Your point would only be valid if people were paying the same prices for eBooks as for pBooks. Looking at the Amazon bestseller lists shows they they aren't.
It is a rational choice to pay less to aquire something of lesser value, and says nothing about the value ascribed to an eBook and a pBook at the same price.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

It is a rational choice to pay less to aquire something of lesser value, and says nothing about the value ascribed to an eBook and a pBook at the same price.

That would seem to be the case for new hardcovers on the best seller list, but that doesn't speak much to the comparative value of ebooks particularly, because paperbacks have always been better sellers than hardcovers, and it's not hard to see how the differences between hardcovers and paperbacks would lead a majority of people to wait for the cheaper option. Other than quality of binding and paper (which is a perfectly valid enough reason to spend more if one is so inclined, though not too many seem to, relatively speaking), the main value-add of hard covers is that they come out first, and some people are willing to pay for that. Since ebooks now come out at the same time, that's also reasonable to see why people choose the cheaper option.

But how then do you explain the success of eBooks for ALL the other books on the bestseller list (and, presumably the vast catalog way down off the list, too) for almost all of which VASTLY CHEAPER USED copies are available with the click of a button right on the same Amazon page? If price was the only driving factor, used books sales would be eclipsing ebooks sales into oblivion.
No, it does not take too much imagination to see that people must be liking other things about ebooks, and if imagination fails, read these forums. People like glowing screens, one handed-page turns, selectable fonts, built in-dictionaries, instant delivery, etc etc etc. Nope, the evidence is pretty overwhelming. People choose ebooks because the like feature and function ebooks offer, not just because of price.

And even used, refurbished ereaders sell out quickly when the deal is good, so it can't be just that people prefer new stuff over used, either.


Poll time, I think.

[ucfgrad93]

I prefer ebooks over pbooks. The price comparison between them is irrelevant to me. I buy ebooks only and then only if they meet my pricing criteria.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

But how then do you explain the success of eBooks for ALL the other books on the bestseller list (and, presumably the vast catalog way down off the list, too) for almost all of which VASTLY CHEAPER USED copies are available with the click of a button right on the same Amazon page? If price was the only driving factor, used books sales would be eclipsing ebooks sales into oblivion.

One obvious factor is delivery cost for used books.
For example, the current #1 bestseller on Amazon is The Great Gatsby.
eBook price: $4.99
New paperback price: $8.49
Cheapest secondhand price: $2.99 + $3.99 shipping = $6.98
The top 9 best sellers are all cheaper in eBook than the cheapest used pBook + shipping.

No, it does not take too much imagination to see that people must be liking other things about ebooks, and if imagination fails, read these forums. People like glowing screens, one handed-page turns, selectable fonts, built in-dictionaries, instant delivery, etc etc etc. Nope, the evidence is pretty overwhelming. People choose ebooks because the like feature and function ebooks offer, not just because of price.

I never said that they did, that is a strawman.
Price is a factor, as are positive factors of eBooks, such as instant delivery and zero weight; and are negative factors such as no actual ownership, no (or restricted) ability to lend, no ability to resell.
Those three sets of things together to into making a value vs cost determination.
But to say that eBooks are selling well, therefore people prefer them to pBooks, without even considering price, does not make sense. Price is always a factor, even if not the only one. If eBooks all cost $20, do you think they would have sold as well?
The eBooks that are selling the best are ones that are cheaper than their pBook versions. That is verifiable fact.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Price is a factor, as are positive factors of eBooks, such as instant delivery and zero weight; and are negative factors such as no actual ownership, no (or restricted) ability to lend, no ability to resell.
Those three sets of things together to into making a value vs cost determination.

Absolutely. (Although "no actual ownership" is a red-herring that reduces in the equation to exactly the same thing as "restricted ability to lend, no ability to resell.")
So we agree on that, but you still maintain to support Sregener's claim that only a minority weigh the whole middle part of that determination heavily?
I certainly see no evidence of that, and lots of evidence against it.
On the flip side, I have seen evidence, however, that those who weight the last part- the negative aspects- heavily are a minority.

And I notice that you didn't, in your list of factors, say "Price OF EBOOK AS COMPARED TO PAPER" which is the only element of price as a factor that I've ever questioned.

I've never made the argument that price wasn't a factor, speaking of strawmen.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

Absolutely. (Although "no actual ownership" is a false red-herring that practically reduces to exactly the same thing as "restricted ability to lend, no ability to resell.")

No actual ownership, depending on the DRM platform, may also include the future inability to read the book, and/or be restricted on how it can be read, and/on which devices. Those are all properties of a license, not ownership.

So we agree on that, but you still maintain to support Sregener claim that only a minority weigh the whole middle part of that determination highly?
I certainly see no evidence of that, and lots of evidence against it.

I don't know who that is.
I'm happy to maintain my own claims, other people can take care of their own.

And I notice that you didn't, in your list of factors, say "Price OF EBOOK AS COMPARED TO PAPER" which is the only element of price as a factor that I've ever questioned.

And that is a reasonable point.
I think for me, it is more that I am not willing to pay (the price that a normal paperback costs) for an eBook, rather than that I am not prepared to pay (the price that this paperback costs) for an eBook.
And that itself splits into two. a) The eBook is restricted in ways that the pBook is not, and b) I resent being asked to pay a higher markup for an eBook than a pBook.
There is a floor price for a pBook, given the extra costs that exist, that is higher than the floor price for a pBook. I can't reasonably expect pBook costs to be reduced to match eBook costs, I can reasonably expect some of the saving for the eBook to be passed on to me, as the consumer.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

No actual ownership, depending on the DRM platform, may also include the future inability to read the book, and/or be restricted on how it can be read, and/on which devices. Those are all properties of a license, not ownership.

Copyright itself gives an implied license. It's only the terms of various licenses that are really at issue.
Arguing about misapplication of the words used to describe the process of acquiring the license is a red-herring, which I think is hindering our ability to form a unified front to bring about more fair terms.

I don't know who that is.

See your post, top of this page.

I think for me, it is more that I am not willing to pay (the price that a normal paperback costs) for an eBook, rather than that I am not prepared to pay (the price that this paperback costs) for an eBook.
And that itself splits into two. a) The eBook is restricted in ways that the pBook is not, and b) I resent being asked to pay a higher markup for an eBook than a pBook.
There is a floor price for a pBook, given the extra costs that exist, that is higher than the floor price for a pBook. I can't reasonably expect pBook costs to be reduced to match eBook costs, I can reasonably expect some of the saving for the eBook to be passed on to me, as the consumer.

I'm trying to see how many agree with you. As of this writing, it seems more agree with me. (which doesn't really prove anything, I realize. But's it's nice to have people agree with me.)

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

Copyright itself gives an implied license. It's only the terms of various licenses that are really at issue.
Arguing about misapplication of the words used to describe the process of acquiring the license is a red-herring, which I think is hindering our ability to form a unified front to bring about more fair terms.

There is a fundamental difference, it is not just a question of words.
With a pBook, I have actual ownership of a physical object, and my right to use or dispose of that object cannot be restricted by the copyright owner.
I only have a license to the content carried within the book.
They can prevent me creating another copy of it, certainly, but they have no say in whether I sell it, lend it, put it on a shelf or set fire to it.
That simply isn't true with an eBook, there is no owned portion, it is all licensed.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

See your post, top of this page.

I didn't agree or disagree with their position, I just pointed out that your response didn't contradict their position, because you had excluded price.
If an eBook is $5 and a pBook is $8, the fact that someone buy the eBook suggests that they value the eBook + $3 more than they value the pBook, but can't tell you how they would value the two at the same price.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

There is a fundamental difference, it is not just a question of words.
With a pBook, I have actual ownership of a physical object, and my right to use or dispose of that object cannot be restricted by the copyright owner.
I only have a license to the content carried within the book.
They can prevent me creating another copy of it, certainly, but they have no say in whether I sell it, lend it, put it on a shelf or set fire to it.
That simply isn't true with an eBook, there is no owned portion, it is all licensed.

That's only because in most cases there is nothing physical to own.

You can buy an ebook on CD, and you'll own the piece of polycarbonate just like you'd own the wood pulp and glue.

Even with a download file, you're free to delete the file or give the file to a friend. They just can't use it.

The argument of "buy versus license" is either one of failing to recognize that digital things and physical things have different inherent properties, and therefore differences in the rules concerning their use, or one of failing to to understand the nature of ones rights to use other people's IP, and how to go about getting those rights modified.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

The argument of "buy versus license" is either one of failing to recognize that digital things and physical things have different inherent properties, and therefore differences in the rules concerning their use, or one of failing to to understand the nature of ones rights to use other people's IP, and how to go about getting those rights modified.

No, it is a question of recognising those differences, and that they have a real impact on one's right to use what one has bought.
I have less rights with an eBook I buy from Amazon than with a pBook I buy from them.
Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

I didn't agree or disagree with their position, I just pointed out that your response didn't contradict their position, because you had excluded price.
If an eBook is $5 and a pBook is $8, the fact that someone buy the eBook suggests that they value the eBook + $3 more than they value the pBook, but can't tell you how they would value the two at the same price.

No, but neither can he.
And I can tell from available reports that even when prices are comparable or close, people are more and more choosing ebooks, so it seems they are finding value in eBooks over pbooks beside price.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

No, but neither can he.

I agree.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

No, it is a question of recognising those differences, and that they have a real impact on one's right to use what one has bought.
I have less rights with an eBook I buy from Amazon than with a pBook I buy from them.
Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

No. You have different rights.

You have the right, for example, to get multiple copies of your ebook. You have the right to get an instant replacement of your ebook if needed. Your pbook purchase does not give you those rights. And because those things are even possible with ebooks, there are additional terms in the express license that address them, which would have no need be expressed concerning the physical book.

And since they are different things with different physical properties, there is no reason or justification to assume that all your rights must be identical with both things.

HOWEVER, I believe that we, as consumers, and as members of society, have a right to set what rights we SHOULD have with either, and I believe that we SHOULD have some additional rights with ebooks, like resale and sharing, for many of the same reasons that we happen to also have them with pbooks...but not just BECAUSE we have them with pbooks.

And we have systems in place to bring about those additions to our license terms. Arguing about the words "buy" and "license" is not one of them. Renaming the process to a word used in conjunction with an inherently different physical item in NO way implies or mandates that you automatically get the rights and properties of that different thing along with the name change.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

No. You have different rights.

You have the right, for example, to get multiple copies of your ebook. You have the right to get an instant replacement of your ebook if needed.

No, I don't.
A vendor might choose to offer those facilities.
They might also choose not to offer them, or to withdraw them at any time.
Anyone want to try getting an instant replacement of a book they bought from one of the many eBook stores that have since closed down?
What legally-enforceable rights do I have with an eBook? (Or, to put it another way, what things can I not legally be prevented from doing. That set is smaller than with pBooks.)

And since they are different things with different physical properties, there is no reason or justification to assume that all your rights must be identical with both things.

My rights aren't identical, that is what the discussion is about?

HOWEVER, I believe that we, as consumers, and as members of society, have a right to set what rights we SHOULD have with either, and I believe that we SHOULD have some additional rights with ebooks, like resale and sharing, for many of the same reasons that we happen to also have them with pbooks...but not just BECAUSE we have them with pbooks.

And we have systems in place to bring about those additions to our license terms. Arguing about the words "buy" and "license" is not one of them. Renaming the process to a word used in conjunction with an inherently different physical item in NO way implies or mandates that you automatically get the rights and properties of that different thing along with the name change.

I'm not really sure I understand why you are so worked up about this.
Digital items, whether books, music or programs, are ultimately licensed rather than purchased. That isn't to damn them as second-class citizens, it is just what the words mean.