The Future of this Forum

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by mrmikel

Would grafting the Google or other search engine give better results? That might be more effective than rearranging deck chairs on mobileread.

*Sucked slightly off topic* I always start with this Google search then add qualifiers as needed. It seems to do better then the site search.

[Manichean]

Originally Posted by mrmikel

As topics get too long, people stop looking, just as I, after looking at the first two pages, have skipped to the end.

One thing I did not see mentioned is the shortcoming of search on this site. It seldom seems to yield relevant results. I have trouble finding things that I posted earlier, when searching my user name.

This may be to some extent the problem with new users. They do not want to read endless forums to try to find an answer that may not be there. This is not to say that there is not an entitlement mentality everywhere these days. I see it in my own business, where people demand rather than ask.

Would grafting the Google or other search engine give better results? That might be more effective than rearranging deck chairs on mobileread.

The "normal" search is rather useless, I agree. However, when I search, I use advanced search, which tends to give me usable results.
I don't think the problem is solved simply by slapping another search engine onto the forum (if that is even possible) and saying "Here ya go" to all the new users. From what I've seen, Google even already indexes the forums.

[mrmikel]

No doubt some rearrangement is required. But new users are probably conditioned to use search for everything. I have a very non-technical friend who doesn't really know how to type a url into a browser. He searches for everything.

It does seem a shame that you can better access to forum information in search from outside rather than inside. There might be an assumption that the forums search is better rather than worse.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

A problem with any search engine is that the user has to know enough about a subject to know the correct search words/phrases to use.

I've been on many forums that recommended using site limited searches in Google instead of the forums' own search engine.

[Manichean]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

I've been on many forums that recommended using site limited searches in Google instead of the forums' own search engine.

That would be something that might be recommended in the how-to-post- guide.

[Perkin]

How about a list of Subjects, with sub-list of common/jargon search phrases linked to do the search so a newbie might find a better search-term or result.

[unboggling]

Here are some ideas from a triple-noob. That's noob to calibre, forums, and open software projects. So take this post as containing triple-noob suggestions and if any of the ideas aren't useful ignore them or modify them to fit as you like.

In thinking about potentially ideal documentation structure and forum structure (without knowing how forum software works and what's possible), I suggest using what is already structured in calibre's gui as a framework, so that those 3 structures (including calibre software) match at the highest level and are easily cross-linked between the software gui, the documentation, and the forum. As it stands now the calibre gui, specifically the tool bar and its icons, present the new user with a practical way to think about how calibre works and gives the user a general workflow, which is one reason why calibre is gaining popularity and lots of users don't need to go to the documentation or on to the forum with questions. At a high level of abstraction that structure/workflow is:

01. Add Book (a format file)
02. Get & Edit Book Metadata
03. Convert Book Format
04. View Book
05. Send Books to Device
06. Maintain Library of Books
07. Maintain Books in Device
08. Get News into Books
09. Save Books to Disk
10. Maintain Server
11. Remove Books or Formats
12. Get help
13. Configure preferences

The preferences pane also provides a useful conceptual structure.

A. Interface
- Look and Feel
- Behavior
- Add Your Own Columns
- Customize the Toolbar
B. Conversion
- Set Input Options
- Set Common Options
- Set Output Options
C. Import/Export
- Add Books
- Save Books to Disk
- Send Books to Devices
- Refine Device's Book File Structure (Metadata Plugboards)
D. Sharing
- Share by eMail
- Share over Net
E. Advanced
- Configure Plugins (if configurable)
- Set Tweaks
- Do Miscellaneous (debug device detection, open config dir, install cmd line tools)
- Create/Set Template Functions

At that level of abstraction, the calibre gui toolbar icon structure, or the preferences pane structure, or preferably some combo of both, seems ideal for structuring forum stickies and threads, and also for structuring documentation. Ideally this level of abstaction will apply equally to the software, the documentation, and the forum. And all 3 areas can have links between them at each level.

Another level of categorization can be applied within the overall abstract subject areas. I think it would be helpful to present content in skill-level subcategories for each subject:

1) Start Here, for beginners
2) Learn More, for beginning power-users
3) Do Sophisticated Actions, for advanced power-users
4) Develop calibre, for wannabe developers

Each of the skill levels on the forum for each subject area could be further divided into locked sticky how-to's and open discussion threads, in a structure containing something like these paths:

calibreforum/subject/skilllevel/howtostickyname001
[and]
calibreforum/subject/skilllevel//discussion_of_howtostickyname001

My next step, if anyone thinks it might be useful, would be to run a search of all my noob questions since I first joined the forum, and plug them into the overall subject structure discussed above. That provides pointers to areas that need locked How-To stickies, at least for beginning noobs like me, which could be written by anyone who knows how to do that specific action, including me if I know. At other skill levels people at appropriate level could do similar locked How-To stickies. Thread maintenance by mods is a slightly different issue than who writes the How-To content and should be considered separately, imho.

Anyway, that's an attempt at conceptualizing this. I'm willing to help further but feel shy about it since I'm a triple-noob still ascending steepening learning curves.

[Manichean]

Originally Posted by unboggling

Another level of categorization can be applied within the overall abstract subject areas. I think it would be helpful to present content in skill-level subcategories for each subject:

1) Start Here, for beginners
2) Learn More, for beginning power-users
3) Do Sophisticated Actions, for advance power-users
4) Develop calibre, for wannabe developers

Each of the skill levels on the forum for each subject area could be further divided into locked sticky how-to's and open discussion threads, in a structure containing something like these paths:

calibreforum/subject/skilllevel/howtostickyname001
[or]
calibreforum/subject/skilllevel//discussion_of_howtostickyname001

I don't agree with this suggestion, as I think it would a) be difficult to know where to put and find the different topics (Where does inserting extra CSS go? Search and replace during conversion? Chapter headings? Are those begining powerusers or advanced powerusers? The CSS stuff might even be beginners?) and b) needlessly fracture the forums. The idea of structuring by workflow is a good one, but I see that reflected in the proposed restructuring as by the first post already.

Edited to add: Also, workflows may differ somewhat between different people.

[kovidgoyal]

@unboggling: Thanks for the suggestion, but I have to agree with Manichean, that following it would lead to too much fragmentation.

I'll wait for a few more hours to see if there are any more suggestions, then I'll contact Alex and see if he is willing to have this re-organization.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

I'll wait for a few more hours to see if there are any more suggestions, then I'll contact Alex and see if he is willing to have this re-organization.

Do you have an Idea that you plan to use? Could we peak at your list?

Sub-forum ordering (FA noob Q biased).

Noob common 'problem' stuff sections first (don't call it 'Start here'. Nobody actually does that Call it 'Secrets your Mother does not want you to know (about Calibre)' )

Classify the sections by skill level needed (CNET TV uses this well on their 'how to' videos) to assimilate. Beginner Intermediate, Advanced , Here be the Guru Swamp

Dr. Don Knuth used Curve ahead Icons in his TeX book to denote the level of 'extra information', special guru tricks. that the beginner-Intermediate can safely ignore.

[Manichean]

Originally Posted by theducks

Do you have an Idea that you plan to use? Could we peak at your list?

See first post?

[kovidgoyal]

My list at the bottom of the first post in this thread.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

My list at the bottom of the first post in this thread.

(And I had re-visited that post, Yesterday. )

Which proves others points: Long threads tend to get ignored, or in my case: 'View first un-read'

Tnx to you and Manichean for keeping me honest

[Archon]

See what happens when you bring the Internet to Grandma?

Now, you have to explain to her how to use it.

At some point a good piece of software may cross over from being a geek level tool to an appliance level piece of software.

Computers themselves and the Internet have crossed over to that "easy to use" appliance level for the most part but are still extremely powerful under the hood.

Calibre is pretty easy to use but still has some roots in a "geeks only" tool. The ease of use combined with the power is why I chose it over say "Book Collector" from Collectorz.com.

Calibre works as a catalog but also as a powerful file converter and installer to your ereader. You can find software that does all these functions but not in one application.

I believe this adds to the confusion.

My opinion:

You have two groups: Grandmas and Geeks
You have three functions: Cataloging, Conversion, and File Installer

The key will be to keep both groups happy without sacrificing performance in any of the three functions.

Good luck on that, but it seems to me this app is almost ready for prime time. That level where Grandma can use it without many phone calls asking how to do X.

You will know you have reached the "Microwave Level" of appliance (where no one reads the manual anyway) when you stop getting all the basic newbie questions like how to set the clock to stop it from flashing 12:00.

When all the basic functions are intuitive the Grandma's will be happy and stop bugging or at least maybe their questions will be answered at the first level of the forum.

Keep the easy to use controls up front and leave the harder stuff on the "Advanced" menu with a "There be dragons here----->" sign to scare off the newbies.

Anyway, Happy Tuesday
Archon

[Manichean]

Archon, good post, however, this was about improving the forum, not Calibre itself