Screwed by Tor again...

[Taylor514ce]

On the other hand, I will speculate that my recent hissy fit prompted another look at YOURS:

Some good information and replies therein.

I should clarify that my particular issue in this case is twofold.

1. The use of e-books to promote a site that has nothing to do with e-books, from a BOOK PUBLISHER, nonetheless. A recipe for misunderstanding and disappointment.

1. Using e-books that are parts of series that are not fully available as e-books. Again, a recipe for disappointment and frustration.

In hindsight, I think the way to promote a blog, interview and short story site would be to release interviews and short stories. TOR set improper expectations and then didn't respond well to the reactions. At least for this reader, it has lessened my enjoyment of the tor.com site as a whole. Sure, I read and liked Scalzi's short story, but top of mind is the thought, "yeah, but when can I get Ghost Brigades in LRF?".

Like Nate, I thought Farthing was brilliant, and want more. I loved Old Man's War. I was fully engrossed in Orphans of Chaos. My own personal opinion, not backed by any research or statistics, is that TOR did their authors a disservice by surrounding their excellent work in an aura of disappointment and confusion.

[Nate the great]

I responded to that thread:

@148 Torie

One basic rule of promotion is you release samples of the item you are promoting.

If you want to promote a movie, you release clips.

If you want to promote a book, you release excerpts.

In promoting this site, you released ebooks. One could assume from the ebook release that you would have ebooks on this site. Where are they, please?

[Taylor514ce]

Which brings me full circle: TOR is off of my reading list, and the free e-book promotion has left a bitter taste in my mouth. What an unfortunate way to launch their site, like offering crumbs to a starving man.

[mbagsh55]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Which brings me full circle: TOR is off of my reading list, and the free e-book promotion has left a bitter taste in my mouth. What an unfortunate way to launch their site, like offering crumbs to a starving man.

Hi Taylor (an others),
I just wanted to add my two cents and say that I really appreciated the free books from TOR. I was disappointed that for example I could not easily purchase an eBook follow-up to some of the stories, but I paid nothing for the eBooks and thoroughly enjoyed a number of them.

For me it is really no different to a public library stocking part one of a series and choosing not to stock future releases if the first book was unpopular.

I agree entirely that is seems a curious promotion, since they are not promoting an eBook store, but I remain grateful for the free reads and hold no animosity to TOR.

~Marcus

[Taylor514ce]

Originally Posted by mbagsh55

Hi Taylor (an others),
I just wanted to add my two cents and say that I really appreciated the free books from TOR. I was disappointed that for example I could not easily purchase an eBook follow-up to some of the stories, but I paid nothing for the eBooks and thoroughly enjoyed a number of them.

For me it is really no different to a public library stocking part one of a series and choosing not to stock future releases if the first book was unpopular.

I agree entirely that is seems a curious promotion, since they are not promoting an eBook store, but I remain grateful for the free reads and hold no animosity to TOR.

~Marcus

Hi, Marcus.

Allow me to attempt a calmer description of the problem, as I perceive it. The core of PNH's and his friends' mockery of me seems to be they think I'm complaining about "free books", or as he put it, "free ice cream". Well, of course he has the right to laugh at his own jokes, but that's not the issue at all. Why? Because these weren't "free books".

They were:

1. A promotion to a site with vague purpose, which many, many people (not just supremely silly moi) thought would be a place for the "rest" of the books. Not so. Footnote: and Tor has never apologized for that misunderstanding, in fact, Torie and PNH on the tor.com site react in flabbergasted ridicule that anyone could think that was the case, and after all, how could anyone complain about "free books"! A circular, and demeaning, reaction.

2. Book 1 of X of a series. Some of these books ended abruptly. Where is book two? At your bookstore, in print editions - ok. Fine, but that isn't the expectation created by Tor. This was an e-book promotion, umm - a promotion featuring e-books.

3. Not truly "free". Books take time to read. A good book draws the reader in, intellectually and sometimes emotionally. Reading a book is an INVESTMENT, in the book, the plot, the characters, the author. That's what books are for. That's why we read. That's why SF fandom exists, and it's why Tor is in business. If you put time and thought and effort and emotion into a book, that book isn't free. I would expect Tor's Editor-in-Chief to understand this, rather than mock it.

So, when I read a "free" book that's part 1 of a series, and expect to find part 2 of that series on the site that promoted that book, and don't find it, is it really so shocking that I would be frustrated? I suggest that is the natural response, and it is profoundly disturbing to see that the Editor-in-Chief of TOR doesn't understand this.

Originally Posted by Patrick Nielson Hayden

Specifically, just to be clear: I think proclaiming yourself to have been "screwed" because we gave away some e-books...was silly. Indeed, when you first put up that post, I laughed out loud at it. Then I read it to some other people, who laughed at it too. How we laughed!

No doubt you are entirely sincere in feeling wronged by having been given an ebook. Hmm, checking...dum de dum...yep, this is still very silly of you.

For someone who claims to be part of "a bunch of skiffy true believers", this seems a shocking disconnect.

His other responses, that hey, Tor's business plans aren't really open for discussion, they have no obligation to reveal anything to anybody, and they've already said something is in the works, and that's all there is to it - well, they are well-taken. Fair enough. Not the answer we all wanted, but that's all the answer we're going to get. I can live with that.

[grimo1re]

I was happy with the free books too but it is a funny way of marketing if the other books in series aren't available as an e-book. The marketing of a full series by giving away the first would've worked on me. I don't feel *screwed* though, just a bit confused.

[jpchan]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Hi, Marcus.

Allow me to attempt a calmer description of the problem, as I perceive it. The core of PNH's and his friends' mockery of me seems to be they think I'm complaining about "free books", or as he put it, "free ice cream". Well, of course he has the right to laugh at his own jokes, but that's not the issue at all. Why? Because these weren't "free books".

They were:

1. A promotion to a site with vague purpose, which many, many people (not just supremely silly moi) thought would be a place for the "rest" of the books. Not so. Footnote: and Tor has never apologized for that misunderstanding, in fact, Torie and PNH on the tor.com site react in flabbergasted ridicule that anyone could think that was the case, and after all, how could anyone complain about "free books"! A circular, and demeaning, reaction.

2. Book 1 of X of a series. Some of these books ended abruptly. Where is book two? At your bookstore, in print editions - ok. Fine, but that isn't the expectation created by Tor. This was an e-book promotion, umm - a promotion featuring e-books.

3. Not truly "free". Books take time to read. A good book draws the reader in, intellectually and sometimes emotionally. Reading a book is an INVESTMENT, in the book, the plot, the characters, the author. That's what books are for. That's why we read. That's why SF fandom exists, and it's why Tor is in business. If you put time and thought and effort and emotion into a book, that book isn't free. I would expect Tor's Editor-in-Chief to understand this, rather than mock it.

So, when I read a "free" book that's part 1 of a series, and expect to find part 2 of that series on the site that promoted that book, and don't find it, is it really so shocking that I would be frustrated? I suggest that is the natural response, and it is profoundly disturbing to see that the Editor-in-Chief of TOR doesn't understand this.



For someone who claims to be part of "a bunch of skiffy true believers", this seems a shocking disconnect.

His other responses, that hey, Tor's business plans aren't really open for discussion, they have no obligation to reveal anything to anybody, and they've already said something is in the works, and that's all there is to it - well, they are well-taken. Fair enough. Not the answer we all wanted, but that's all the answer we're going to get. I can live with that.

Or to put it this way:

"Hi here is a free sample of crack. Come to the corner or 3rd and main look for the guy in the gray overcoat."

At the corner of 3rd and main.
Guy in the gray overcoat: " oh you got that free sample of crack? Well I'm not selling any; lets talk about these Amway products I'm selling"

[nekokami]

I agree, it's irritating (and I'm another person who has downloaded the free TOR books, but put off reading them until more are available). But if the whole Macmillan product line starts to appear in 6-12 months, or even just the whole TOR line, I'll be pretty happy, given the lack of movement in the past 20 YEARS.

Meanwhile... I've got ways to read most of the books I really want to read as ebooks. I do my best to make sure authors get compensated for each new book I read, but I just can't afford to store any more paper books.

[Taylor514ce]

Ok, for those of you not following the discussion on tor.com (which is not to be confused with TOR's website, which is, umm, well, it isn't tor.com, ok?) the official answer is, to paraphrase: stop bugging us, dude.

However, the general feeling in the air is that TOR is working something out with Baen Webscriptions. I've looked at Webscriptions a couple of times. I think I get it, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Books come in parts. New parts each month.
2. Each month will also introduce up to 4 new books to which I can subscribe.

Is that basically correct? If so, cool... but that's not how I'd like to purchase books. And it's in particular not how I'd like to purchase specific TOR books.

So, I guess I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that at some point in the future (don't ask, it's none of your business) there will be other options.

[VillageReader]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

1. Books come in parts. New parts each month.

I'm not certain who the marketing genius was behind this, but in a typical year I read over 150 books - or one every 2-1/5 days. Since I usually have multiple books going, the average time may be longer, but still around 12 days.

For me 'parts' each month won't cut it. Even a 'slow' read rarely takes a month.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by VillageReader

I'm not certain who the marketing genius was behind this, but in a typical year I read over 150 books - or one every 2-1/5 days. Since I usually have multiple books going, the average time may be longer, but still around 12 days.

For me 'parts' each month won't cut it. Even a 'slow' read rarely takes a month.

The Webscription parts are just pre-publication parts. The full e-book is available about 2 weeks before print - and of course if you are willing to pay more, you can get the full e-arc for 15$ 4-5 months in advance.

For example 1635-Dreeson is December, so in late September/early October you will have half available if you buy the December Webscription. But you can read 25% now for free and pay 15$ to read the full book about 4 months before release. Not a bad deal compared to buying print arcs on Ebay.

Incidentally this one is a must for everyone enjoying the superb alt-hist series by E. Flint and collaborators since it ties all the internal threads to date. No battles or big picture international politics though, but a lot of fun. I read it in an evening despite being quite long...

[pdurrant]

None of the options are really subscriptions in the usual sense.

Any of the books on the webscription.net website can be bought individually /once past the publication date/ and you get immediate access to the entire book.

And any set of books in a webscription month can be bought for immediate access to the full books /once past the publication date/.

If you buy a webscription month /before/ the publication date of the books, in the third month before publication, half of each book becomes available in a slightly pre-publication version (still with final polish edit to be done). In the second month, you get the next quarter. And a couple of weeks before the official publication date of the new releases (i.e. two weeks before they appear in bookshops) you get the whole final text of the books.

Individual books are $6. Webscription months are $15, whether bought before or after the publication date.

And then there are eARCs - perhaps six months before publication, usually for $15, you can buy the entire book in pre-edited form. Great if you can't wait to read the next book in a series.

Paul

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Ok, for those of you not following the discussion on tor.com (which is not to be confused with TOR's website, which is, umm, well, it isn't tor.com, ok?) the official answer is, to paraphrase: stop bugging us, dude.

However, the general feeling in the air is that TOR is working something out with Baen Webscriptions. I've looked at Webscriptions a couple of times. I think I get it, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Books come in parts. New parts each month.
2. Each month will also introduce up to 4 new books to which I can subscribe.

Is that basically correct? If so, cool... but that's not how I'd like to purchase books. And it's in particular not how I'd like to purchase specific TOR books.

So, I guess I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that at some point in the future (don't ask, it's none of your business) there will be other options.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

I think I get it, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Books come in parts. New parts each month.
2. Each month will also introduce up to 4 new books to which I can subscribe.

Is that basically correct? If so, cool... but that's not how I'd like to purchase books. And it's in particular not how I'd like to purchase specific TOR books.

Yea... it didn't seem to straight forward to me either. But, from what I can tell you can go buy a single book for $5 too if you want... It seems to me that the "scription" part of it is that you can get books before they are actually published. You also don't have to "subscribe" you can buy any one months bundle that you want... current and future it seems.

None of the TOR books on there seem to be available at this time.

It is nice that if a book you choose is in the Baen free library it tells you and allows you to download it, rather than making you buy it.

BOb

[nekokami]

Generally speaking, the books featured in Webscriptions have also been available as single complete ebooks. I'm hoping someone just used the Webscriptions name as an easy shorthand.

[slayda]

Taylor, as Neko says, you can generally buy Baen books singly. Not sure if TOR will operate the same. The Webscriptions are not really subscriptions in the usual sense. Think of them more as a bundle that you can buy. Each month, there is a different bundle, but just because you bought one bundle, doesn't mean you have "subscribed". Each months bundle is an individual purchase. It's a good way to get some books you know you'll like and also have a good deal on some "unknown-to-you" authors.

You can go back & buy "old" bundles at any time. When you buy a future bundle, they release the first half (I believe) 3 months before it is released on paper, the third quarter is added 2 months before & the last quarter released 1 month before. I almost never DL the books before they are complete but I often buy them ahead of time.

It is not generally known whether TOR will have their own special (TOR only) bundles or whether they will be mixed with Baen. TOR & Baen probably know or maybe this is one of the points still being negotiated.

Hope this helps.