Murdoch's paywalls are 'antithetical to everything' claims Guardian's Rusbridger - Page 3

Steven Lyle Jordan · 02-28-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalleron

Steve, MSM is short for 'mainstream media'. What did you think it was short for?

You're right... brainfart. I thought you were referring to MSN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalleron

Which is why, sadly enough, I get most of my news from Jon Stewart.

How 'bout that? And that's a source you usually don't get, unless you're paying for cable...

khalleron · 02-28-2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You're right... brainfart. I thought you were referring to MSN.

How 'bout that? And that's a source you usually don't get, unless you're paying for cable...

I watch him on Hulu.com

Steven Lyle Jordan · 02-28-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalleron

I watch him on Hulu.com

I hear Murdock's talking about making that a paid service soon.

khalleron · 02-28-2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I hear Murdock's talking about making that a paid service soon.

He'll shoot himself in the foot if he does.

And the music goes round and round and we're back where we started.

But I'll believe it when I see it.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 02-28-2010, 05:07 PM

You know, so many of the comments I read in here sound pretty much like "It'll never fly, Orville"... basically, insisting it will never happen, but without really knowing (or saying) why it can't.

Saying it won't happen because it hasn't happened yet, isn't an answer. Also, saying it won't happen because people won't like it, is not only not an answer... it's a response that has been proven wrong, time and time again, in multiple industries (for instance, the establishment of pay cable, the U.S. traffic laws, and the transition to CDs and DVDs from vinyl and VHS).

When, at the same time, there are examples of the phenomenon actually happening, and successfully, I fail to see the logic in insisting it can't happen.

So... where are we now? Are we discussing facts, pros and cons, evidence? Or are we just standing on opposite sides of the room throwing pies at each other?

DawnFalcon · 02-28-2010, 05:19 PM

Examples? Link!

(And note that it's not examples of sending news to mobile devices, which is working, but pay walls on the general web for general news...)

pilotbob · 02-28-2010, 05:33 PM

I would be happy to pay for Hulu... if the price is right... and IF the shows don't disappear after a week or so like many of them do now.

BOb

Sonist · 02-28-2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Just to through out my two cents... I think there is an inverse relationship between free info/pay info vs audience.

For example, everyone pretty much needs search engine / email / etc... so those types of information/services can work with an add supported model.

However, information such that is more detailed... for example, articles on the care and feeding on Ninja Attack Squirrels. The market will be much smaller so an add supported site probably won't make ends meet. Espessially if they pay for quality writers with NAS expertise.
...

These are pretty valuable two cents, IMO.

Just one caveat: if you DRM the paid-for info to death, and make it hard to use freely, then you turn off many potential customers and feed the "piracy" movement.

Most magazines do this, through proprietary services like Zinio. That's why I don't have subscriptions anymore. Notable exception is Scientific American, which provides perfect PDFs, including issues from their archives - totally worth the subscription price, IMO.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 02-28-2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Examples? Link!

Harry has already mentioned the Encyclopedia Britannica and the Oxford English Dictionary sites. Sonist mentioned Zinio. (Find your own links

.) I suggested erotica sites as well, such as Playboy and Penthouse--I will refrain from listing others, but we all know that erotica/porn is perhaps the best example of paid content sites on the web, bar none.

The web is rife with pay content. People will pay for content they want, if they consider it worth having. And if you read the first post, you'll note that I wasn't only referring to general news content, but magazine and periodical "specialty" content as well. Based on the evidence, there seems every reason to expect that people can get used to paying for content they want... even when they don't really want to pay for it (because, after all, who really wants to pay for anything?... but somehow, people make money off of us).

Perhaps general news sites will have the hardest time establishing paywalls compared to other types of sites... but I don't see it as impossible, if their customers believe they are getting a quality site that speaks to them and filters out the noise they don't want to hear. In essence, this is the promise of all specialty sites, and the reason people are willing to pay to get them.

It's based on this that I say Rusbridger's comment is simply inaccurate, that it does not, in fact, apply to "everything" on the web. It's idealistic wishful thinking on his (and many others') part, but that doesn't make it true.

DawnFalcon · 02-28-2010, 10:37 PM

Again, general news. Not reference sites or even magazines. Murdoch's assertions about general news and paywalls are the issue here.

You can talk about other types of site until you're blue in the face, I'm afraid I'm not really paying attention.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 02-28-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Again, general news. Not reference sites or even magazines. Murdoch's assertions about general news and paywalls are the issue here.

Read the first post again: That is HIS issue... it was not mine. This thread, as I wrote it, is about pay sites for news, magazines and other periodicals.

DawnFalcon · 02-28-2010, 11:01 PM

To be blunt, I'm a lot more likely to pay for a feed into the citizen journalism network I'm a member of than I am for one of Murdoch's sites.

There are plenty of ways to handle distributed networks reporting news, with various trust models. Croudsourcing of this sort needs a good mathematician setting it up to resist malicious attacks, sure, but there's nothing that complex about it. You can also use public sources as inputs to avoid the issue of community-bias.

(There are also ways to recombine news using "reflections" off blogs, but as far as I know that paper's still unpublished so I won't discuss details)

Steven Lyle Jordan · 02-28-2010, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

To be blunt, I'm a lot more likely to pay for a feed into the citizen journalism network I'm a member of than I am for one of Murdoch's sites.

Yes...

DawnFalcon · 02-28-2010, 11:19 PM

Oh, I should add that the founding charter of the group I'm involved in absolutely prevents any such effort, to the degree that legal penalties could be invoked against anyone trying such.

No.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 03-01-2010, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Oh, I should add that the founding charter of the group I'm involved in absolutely prevents any such effort, to the degree that legal penalties could be invoked against anyone trying such.

That would be for charging for your work... or paying for someone else's? Just to be clear.

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02-28-2010, 05:07 PM	#35
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	You know, so many of the comments I read in here sound pretty much like "It'll never fly, Orville"... basically, insisting it will never happen, but without really knowing (or saying) why it can't. Saying it won't happen because it hasn't happened yet, isn't an answer. Also, saying it won't happen because people won't like it, is not only not an answer... it's a response that has been proven wrong, time and time again, in multiple industries (for instance, the establishment of pay cable, the U.S. traffic laws, and the transition to CDs and DVDs from vinyl and VHS). When, at the same time, there are examples of the phenomenon actually happening, and successfully, I fail to see the logic in insisting it can't happen. So... where are we now? Are we discussing facts, pros and cons, evidence? Or are we just standing on opposite sides of the room throwing pies at each other?

02-28-2010, 05:19 PM	#36
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Examples? Link! (And note that it's not examples of sending news to mobile devices, which is working, but pay walls on the general web for general news...)

02-28-2010, 05:33 PM	#37
pilotbob Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,832 Karma: 11844413 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tampa, FL USA Device: Kindle Touch	I would be happy to pay for Hulu... if the price is right... and IF the shows don't disappear after a week or so like many of them do now. BOb

02-28-2010, 10:37 PM	#40
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Again, general news. Not reference sites or even magazines. Murdoch's assertions about general news and paywalls are the issue here. You can talk about other types of site until you're blue in the face, I'm afraid I'm not really paying attention.

02-28-2010, 11:01 PM	#42
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	To be blunt, I'm a lot more likely to pay for a feed into the citizen journalism network I'm a member of than I am for one of Murdoch's sites. There are plenty of ways to handle distributed networks reporting news, with various trust models. Croudsourcing of this sort needs a good mathematician setting it up to resist malicious attacks, sure, but there's nothing that complex about it. You can also use public sources as inputs to avoid the issue of community-bias. (There are also ways to recombine news using "reflections" off blogs, but as far as I know that paper's still unpublished so I won't discuss details)

02-28-2010, 11:19 PM	#44
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Oh, I should add that the founding charter of the group I'm involved in absolutely prevents any such effort, to the degree that legal penalties could be invoked against anyone trying such. No.

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