DRMed textbooks

[jehane]

This may sound like heresy here, but can you buy the paper version? The thought of a textbook that expires has me lost for words. I have kept *all* my uni textbooks - and I even look at them once in a while! I'll even admit that one of them I have read more of since finishing uni than while I was doing the class...

IIRC, only one class I took had a textbook written by the professor giving the class. He was so horrified at the price that the publisher wanted to charge that he arranged for all of us to get cheap photocopied versions of the entire book, for free. His view was that he wrote the book because there wasn't anything suitable for his course, not to make money.

[bhartman36]

First of all, let me say that $140 is ridiculous for a textbook -- especially one that "expires". That's just nonsense.

However, I know someone who's written a textbook, and let me tell you, it's disheartening to see that textbook online in pirated form (as a pdf, in this case). When you invest significant time and effort into getting your book written and published, it's very disheartening to see some punks distributing it for free (and one site was adding insult to injury by even charging for users to register so they could download books).

Part of the problem is pricing. When you're dealing with college students, who don't have a lot of money to begin with, charging $100 for a textbook just makes the incentive to get a pirated copy too great. It should be remembered, though, that this isn't necessarily the author's greed. It's publishers that set the prices. Maybe if self-publishing for textbooks takes off, that'll change, but I think that's some way off.

[KevinH]

Hi,

Speaking as a professor, please don't paint us all with the same brush. I don't write textbooks, I research and publish journal articles. That said, when I teach a course, I have to choose from what the publishers have available. The publishers are the ones going out of their way to constantly update their books and to stop publishing previous versions to force students to not be able to buy "used books". I really have no choice unless I want to write and publish my own textbook and give it away for free. I have high hopes that the Open Source Textbook movement at MIT will take over and all textbooks will be Open Source versions (but I am not holding my breath!). I get nothing for choosing a textbook (no money and no tenure or promotion is based on it).

I actually go out of my way to try and reduce the overall cost to the student by selecting just specific chapters out of books and publishing them electronically, trying to stay with the oldest editions that the campus bookstore can get enough copies of, etc.

I am on sabbatical now and I am going to be sitting in on a PhD level course and bought the textbooks for a single class and the bill came to over $500 (for one class!).

Textbooks are outrageously priced and students should fight back. Talk to the administration. Talk to the professor. It is the big publishers who are the problem here. There is no reason for an e textbook to be priced even close to what a hard printed copy would be.

My 2 cents.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by mldavis2

Part of the textbook problem is that at many large universities, the big test of gaining full tenure for a professor is to PUBLISH. They don't give a rip about teaching -- in fact few if any college/university professors have ever been instructed in the fine art of 'teaching' their discipline. So you perform research and publish, with a little classroom time on the side, letting your grad students do the heavy lifting of paper grading and the like.

Obviously, with most professors writing, the university wants part of the profits from that effort. Note how many are published by some 'university press.'

The other killer is that text book material is dynamic -- ever changing, especially in the sciences. With so many new texts coming out every year, an oldie but goodie stands little chance of survival.

Yes, it isn't fair and often isn't ethical, but it is profitable. Students are usually strapped for cash, so the temptation to crack and share is often overwhelming, hence the DRM and time limits. Doesn't make it 'right' but that's how it is.

There's nothing virtuous in consenting to be ripped off.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Hi,

Speaking as a professor, please don't paint us all with the same brush. I don't write textbooks, I research and publish journal articles. That said, when I teach a course, I have to choose from what the publishers have available. The publishers are the ones going out of their way to constantly update their books and to stop publishing previous versions to force students to not be able to buy "used books". I really have no choice unless I want to write and publish my own textbook and give it away for free. I have high hopes that the Open Source Textbook movement at MIT will take over and all textbooks will be Open Source versions (but I am not holding my breath!). I get nothing for choosing a textbook (no money and no tenure or promotion is based on it).

I actually go out of my way to try and reduce the overall cost to the student by selecting just specific chapters out of books and publishing them electronically, trying to stay with the oldest editions that the campus bookstore can get enough copies of, etc.

I am on sabbatical now and I am going to be sitting in on a PhD level course and bought the textbooks for a single class and the bill came to over $500 (for one class!).

Textbooks are outrageously priced and students should fight back. Talk to the administration. Talk to the professor. It is the big publishers who are the problem here. There is no reason for an e textbook to be priced even close to what a hard printed copy would be.

My 2 cents.

Talk is meaningless. They need to take decisive action. Occupy the bookstore. Boycott Professors who collude with the rip-off artists. Put together a (paper) book-sharing co-op.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

There's nothing virtuous in consenting to be ripped off.

I think the more ethical thing to do would be either a) simply not to buy the book and take your chances without it, or b) find an alternate book or books that will give you the same information. There aren't very many textbooks with unique information in them, are there?

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

First of all, let me say that $140 is ridiculous for a textbook -- especially one that "expires". That's just nonsense.

However, I know someone who's written a textbook, and let me tell you, it's disheartening to see that textbook online in pirated form (as a pdf, in this case). When you invest significant time and effort into getting your book written and published, it's very disheartening to see some punks distributing it for free (and one site was adding insult to injury by even charging for users to register so they could download books).

Part of the problem is pricing. When you're dealing with college students, who don't have a lot of money to begin with, charging $100 for a textbook just makes the incentive to get a pirated copy too great. It should be remembered, though, that this isn't necessarily the author's greed. It's publishers that set the prices. Maybe if self-publishing for textbooks takes off, that'll change, but I think that's some way off.

Originally Posted by bhartman36

I think the more ethical thing to do would be either a) simply not to buy the book and take your chances without it, or b) find an alternate book or books that will give you the same information. There aren't very many textbooks with unique information in them, are there?

have you actually BEEN to college? with very few exceptions textbooks are unique and it is impossible to substitute them. ANY hard science book is normally well over $100. history, religion, philosophy, all of the "ology's" are anywhere from 50 to 300

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

First of all, let me say that $140 is ridiculous for a textbook -- especially one that "expires". That's just nonsense.

However, I know someone who's written a textbook, and let me tell you, it's disheartening to see that textbook online in pirated form (as a pdf, in this case). When you invest significant time and effort into getting your book written and published, it's very disheartening to see some punks distributing it for free (and one site was adding insult to injury by even charging for users to register so they could download books).

Part of the problem is pricing. When you're dealing with college students, who don't have a lot of money to begin with, charging $100 for a textbook just makes the incentive to get a pirated copy too great. It should be remembered, though, that this isn't necessarily the author's greed. It's publishers that set the prices. Maybe if self-publishing for textbooks takes off, that'll change, but I think that's some way off.

So then what would be your solution?
I'm not a fan of book pirating, but DT for dam that if you think I'm willing to flunk a $3000 plus class over a $140 ebook rental. I'd pirate all day long first. When I was in college, if a student didn't have money for books, they could go to the library and use a copy, print the necessary pages and share.

When I was in college everyone was excited at the end of the year - now I can sell back these textbooks and get some money to last me through the summer or buy textbooks for the next semester. RENTAL?? Seriously?? I'd be in the department chair's office ASAP. If that didn't work I'd try the Dean and then the chancellor (I'm a big fan of escalations).

And at the end of the day, if I couldn't do anything else, I'd pirate that book and pass my class.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by KevinH

The publishers are the ones going out of their way to constantly update their books and to stop publishing previous versions to force students to not be able to buy "used books"....

Well...

For some subjects, the material does need to be constantly updated -- particularly hard and social sciences. Unless you're teaching at St. John's College, you might not want a physics textbook that is more than 2 years old.

For others, not so much. However it doesn't look like they put out new translations of Plato every year or two, so....

Originally Posted by KevinH

Textbooks are outrageously priced and students should fight back. Talk to the administration.

OK, but... have them do what? Subsidize the book costs?

Originally Posted by KevinH

Talk to the professor.

I agree, but clearly this doesn't always work.

Originally Posted by KevinH

There is no reason for an e textbook to be priced even close to what a hard printed copy would be.

Actually, there are a lot of reasons why ebooks, including textbooks, will have similar pricing to the paper equivalents.

You still have all the costs of writing, editing, layouts, legal, research, marketing, overhead, taxes and retail cut. The only cost you lose is the paper. Generally speaking that's around 15% of the total costs, though it's entirely plausible that the costs are higher for low-volume titles like textbooks. Perhaps 20% or even 25%, but probably not much more.

I also doubt that the publishers have extortionate profit margins. If they were making 30% profits per year, for example, odds are pretty good that someone in the business would drop their prices in order to get more business. I won't say the market works "perfectly," but there is enough competition to ensure competitive pricing.


The only part of this structure which I strongly disagree with is the expiration date. IMO there is no excuse for that high a price for a book that expires in 8 months. Since the DRM essentially prevents unauthorized transfers, that should be sufficient.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

have you actually BEEN to college? with very few exceptions textbooks are unique and it is impossible to substitute them. ANY hard science book is normally well over $100. history, religion, philosophy, all of the "ology's" are anywhere from 50 to 300

Well, granted, I graduated from undergrad in '93 and grad school in 2000, so maybe my knowledge isn't 100% up to date. Substitution isn't an option for a lot of classes, I suppose, but if it's history, some form of mathematics, and yes, even some "ology's", the information therein isn't only available in that textbook, unless the professor is going to be a schmuck and have tests like, "On page 103 of your textbook, what word does the author use to describe...".

The point of a class is to assimilate the information, not to memorize the assigned textbook. I did just fine in grad school and, although I bought all the textbooks required (and still have a few of them), I dobut I even cracked some of them open. I had other ways of learning the material.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

So then what would be your solution?
I'm not a fan of book pirating, but DT for dam that if you think I'm willing to flunk a $3000 plus class over a $140 ebook rental. I'd pirate all day long first. When I was in college, if a student didn't have money for books, they could go to the library and use a copy, print the necessary pages and share.

Like I said, $140 for a textbook (especially a rental) is ridiculous. The path of least resistance would be a library copy of the book, or to share the cost among several students and have study buddies, if you had to (as in, if I don't have it, I'll fail) have the book. As I said in another post, though, I don't think all textbooks are absolutely necessary to have. The point of a class is to learn the material being taught, not to memorize the textbook.

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

When I was in college everyone was excited at the end of the year - now I can sell back these textbooks and get some money to last me through the summer or buy textbooks for the next semester. RENTAL?? Seriously?? I'd be in the department chair's office ASAP. If that didn't work I'd try the Dean and then the chancellor (I'm a big fan of escalations).

And at the end of the day, if I couldn't do anything else, I'd pirate that book and pass my class.

My college days are far behind me, but I seem to recall assigned readings being available at the library, also, so that might be an option. Or just use an older (used) version of the textbook. Sure, it'll be in paper, rather than electronic, but for the price difference, I'd be all over that.

Again, my point isn't to say that $140 for a rental ebook is justified. It's just to say that theft isn't a justifiable response.

And in fact, one of the suggestions I made to the person whose book I found online was to go to the publisher and ask them to lower the price of the book. A lower-priced book is less likely to be stolen. The author agreed with me, but doubted his power to get the publisher to move the price.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

unless the professor is going to be a schmuck and have tests like, "On page 103 of your textbook, what word does the author use to describe...".

You'd be surprised. I had a take-home mid-term once with an essay question that began 'discuss, in narrative form, the history of literary criticism as outlined by SoandSo in Chapter 4 of your course text.' And this was in 2000, when we were still in paper and every textbook was on reserve at the library so you at least had that option.

On a more recent note, I have taken several containing ed courses on-line which allowed me to upgrade a professional qualification I hold, and in all of those courses, 50% of the course grade was based on participation, with participation being defined as 'posting on the message board a minimum of every three days in a way that proves you did the course reading.' No course reading, no grade for the course. Since it was all on-line, they had no other way to assess it. One time, there WAS an ebook option, it was the kind that expires, and I vowed never to do that again, but they did have a print version available too for a slightly higher price so you at least had the option.

I agree that it can be 'disheartening' to find a work of yours on a torrent site, but I think that it can be as disheartening to be priced out of higher education by people who just don't get it. I am thankful that during my degree (1996-2000) most of the professors seemed sensitive to the price of the books and would tell us which ones were perhaps a little less required There was also a shift toward custom course packs where a handful of chapters from different sources could be compiled into a kit you could buy for a fairly low price ($30 for something that would be at least double that if you had to buy a 'proper' textbook). Granted, those had no re-sale value since they were specific to that course and that term, but still, it was a better deal for students.

Like any 'product' for sale, you have to look at what your market can stand. Whether it is right or wrong, the reality is that when faced with $150 for an expiring book or with a torrent download, most students won't think twice. The way to combat 'piracy' in any form of digital media is not by locking it up even tighter but by making sure it is available at a price your market will pay.

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Well...
You still have all the costs of writing, editing, layouts, legal, research, marketing, overhead, taxes and retail cut. The only cost you lose is the paper. Generally speaking that's around 15% of the total costs, though it's entirely plausible that the costs are higher for low-volume titles like textbooks. Perhaps 20% or even 25%, but probably not much more.

The funny thing is if you actually ask the publisher reps that come to campus to push their "textbooks" they will tell you that the cost of textbooks is high because of the extremely expensive cost of printing and binding in limited quantities! Textbook authors (except for a very few big names) do not get "advance payments" and actually only see a penny when direct sales happen.
There are very very few textbook authors that are getting rich off of their textbooks sales.

So where is all of the money going for the DRM ebook version that expires in 8 months? To subsidize the paper copies? I don't think so.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Like I said, $140 for a textbook (especially a rental) is ridiculous. The path of least resistance would be a library copy of the book, or to share the cost among several students and have study buddies, if you had to (as in, if I don't have it, I'll fail) have the book. As I said in another post, though, I don't think all textbooks are absolutely necessary to have. The point of a class is to learn the material being taught, not to memorize the textbook.

The purpose of the class is not to memorize the textbook, but I have had many lazy teachers. They did things like assign page numbers (not chapters, which would be easier), skipping around from here to there. The requirement for a book will be determined by the teacher and the subject, not by what we think is necessary.

Originally Posted by bhartman36

My college days are far behind me, but I seem to recall assigned readings being available at the library, also, so that might be an option. Or just use an older (used) version of the textbook. Sure, it'll be in paper, rather than electronic, but for the price difference, I'd be all over that.

I agree that I would use pirate sites as a last resort (no print versions available, no library copies), but if the only option is a $140 ebook rental (I am assuming that the DRM on the rental would not allow prints, since if it did some enterprising young student would have great racket going on), then that is what would happen.

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Again, my point isn't to say that $140 for a rental ebook is justified. It's just to say that theft isn't a justifiable response.

And in fact, one of the suggestions I made to the person whose book I found online was to go to the publisher and ask them to lower the price of the book. A lower-priced book is less likely to be stolen. The author agreed with me, but doubted his power to get the publisher to move the price.

Never will I claim that theft is a justifiable response, but don’t you think that a $140 RENTAL for an ebook should fall under “theft” as well?

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

The purpose of the class is not to memorize the textbook, but I have had many lazy teachers. They did things like assign page numbers (not chapters, which would be easier), skipping around from here to there. The requirement for a book will be determined by the teacher and the subject, not by what we think is necessary.

If it was a matter of pages, I, as a student, would have no problem w/ photocopying the pages and sharing them w/ friends. Teachers themselves photocopy articles all the time, so I'd have no qualms with that.

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I agree that I would use pirate sites as a last resort (no print versions available, no library copies), but if the only option is a $140 ebook rental (I am assuming that the DRM on the rental would not allow prints, since if it did some enterprising young student would have great racket going on), then that is what would happen.

As a last resort, you're probably right, but I'd at least talk to the teacher (in addition to all the things you mentioned).

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Never will I claim that theft is a justifiable response, but don’t you think that a $140 RENTAL for an ebook should fall under “theft” as well?

I think the difference is volition. If you buy a textbook, you're allowing someone to take your money. Publishers don't willingly put books on pirate sites (that I know of, anyway), so there's a slight difference there. I can see why someone would feel forced to steal under such conditions, but I don't think it's the same thing.