Legacy formats are ticking time bomb for lost data - Page 2

nekokami · 07-04-2007, 11:46 AM

Ah, I fondly (sorta) remember my computer room days... mounting tapes in the middle of the night for users, hoisting platters of disks, running the occasional card batch... backing up data to microfiche.... I used to have a big spool of paper tape, but that got discarded in some move long ago.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 07-05-2007, 11:08 AM

You'd think that, between librarians and historians, e-book readers, e-book sellers, e-book manufacturers, and e-book publishers, that you had enough people that agree that a document (software) format solution is needed. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be enough people to create a quorum to discuss all the issues, and come up with a solution.

As far as storage (hardware), the biggest problem there has always been the lack of thought to backwards compatability when upgrading to new formats. This is the same issue as with doing regular and proper backups, and that cause is simple laziness.

In either case, the problems are easily solveable by simply getting everyone involved together, and getting them dedicated to finding the solution. The solution will kick-start the industry, making everyone happy. It just amazes me that we've had to wait so long for everyone involved to come to their senses and "git 'er done."

Microsoft's solution is typical of them: "Yes, we agree that we all need a standardized format. Here, use ours!" A better solution for MS documents is to convert them to HTML (using their own tools), then strip out all the extraneous XHTML that they add (which is only there to reconvert their HTML back to their applications, and is otherwise useless).

But as I've maintained, an HTML- or XML-based format is already established and useable. MS should be embracing OEBPS, if they want to be part of the solution, and not part of the problem.

rlauzon · 07-05-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You'd think that, between librarians and historians, e-book readers, e-book sellers, e-book manufacturers, and e-book publishers, that you had enough people that agree that a document (software) format solution is needed. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be enough people to create a quorum to discuss all the issues, and come up with a solution.

The problem is that most content is locked up by a small group of companies. These companies don't want standard formats. They want you to pay every time you want to read/listen/watch their content. Ever-changing, proprietary formats are only their latest attempt at renting content to you - at full price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Microsoft's solution is typical of them: "Yes, we agree that we all need a standardized format. Here, use ours!" A better solution for MS documents is to convert them to HTML (using their own tools), then strip out all the extraneous XHTML that they add (which is only there to reconvert their HTML back to their applications, and is otherwise useless).

Microsoft's problem is two-fold.

1. They don't want standards because that violates their monopoly business strategy. The last thing they want is for users to be able to take their data and walk away from Microsoft products.
2. Microsoft has a history of not being able to follow standards (even when they want to, even when they wrote the standard). If Microsoft has to follow someone else's standard, they are already 2 steps behind everyone else. No business wants to be in that position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

But as I've maintained, an HTML- or XML-based format is already established and useable. MS should be embracing OEBPS, if they want to be part of the solution, and not part of the problem.

They should also be embracing ODF, but that won't happen anytime soon either.

UncleDuke · 07-06-2007, 09:45 AM

even the old standard of ink on paper is breaking down

maybe we should go back to stone carving

yvanleterrible · 07-06-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncleDuke

even the old standard of ink on paper is breaking down

maybe we should go back to stone carving

I'd love to see how MR would fit in!

nekokami · 07-06-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncleDuke

even the old standard of ink on paper is breaking down

maybe we should go back to stone carving

Oddly enough, I do know of a case where this happened, sort of. (No stone carving, though.) A Turkish classmate of mine was bemoaning the fact that the writing system was changed by the government in the early 20th century (I think), with the unfortunate result that the current generation is unable to read documents from a couple of generations ago. So yes, it can happen with paper and ink, too.

Red Alert · 07-11-2007, 01:18 AM

I was perusing the Library of Congress website just yesterday and they have a whole section devoted to the conversion and conservation of e-media.

There is a user participation option as well.

Red

NatCh · 07-11-2007, 08:27 AM

Sounds interesting, Red Alert -- is there a link you might could post to it?

Bob Russell · 07-11-2007, 10:24 AM

I never really thought about it much before this thread, but how secure do we feel our current technology is? I mean, can we envision a human disaster that would leave us without the long term ability to read DVDs, hard drives, etc?

If we move away from paper archival, then we are very dependent on technology to read magnetic storage. But that's not the sort of thing you can do by just being clever - you have to maintain your technological and manufacturing capacity. If we had a major disaster in the form of an asteroid hit, plague, nuclear holocaust, etc would we really expect to be able to preserve digital archives for any period of time?

And of all times in human history, that would be when we most need to preserve the knowledge and history of humans in order to survive. What a shame if it knocked us into another dark ages due to the digital dependence.

I hadn't thought about this before, but now I think I would staunchly support preservation of a significant body of literature and technical books in paper form!

Of course, it's a moot point in the near future because paper books are not going away any time soon, no matter how popular e-books get!

yvanleterrible · 07-11-2007, 10:34 AM

We're far away in a technological loop where if something major happened, we could not build back all our machines that were built by other machines. Nothing is hand done in the critical techno side. That is a major reason not to trust precious data to only technological archiving. We need paper in a parallel support. And maybe microfilm.

NatCh · 07-11-2007, 01:54 PM

I don't know about you, but I find the print on microfilm entirely too small to read without a machine.

yvanleterrible · 07-11-2007, 01:57 PM

Agreed!
A simple projection device can be made by hand, which is the basis for my including it.

Bob Russell · 07-11-2007, 02:10 PM

But I think Yvan is on to something... at least with microfilm (if it can be preserved easily over long periods of time), it doesn't require sophisticated technology. It's relatively simple to magnify an image and people can probably maintain much of that knowledge in a way that allows even a group of people with very little technology to figure out how to read it. You can see the difference easily if you compare it to the complexity of giving them a hard drive and no computers or electricity! But microfilm at least has a chance to be read.

NatCh · 07-11-2007, 02:19 PM

Yeah, but the eyestrain!

yvanleterrible · 07-11-2007, 03:06 PM

Geez! Those smilies get me every time.

You're an artist in their use NatCh!

07-05-2007, 11:08 AM	#17
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	You'd think that, between librarians and historians, e-book readers, e-book sellers, e-book manufacturers, and e-book publishers, that you had enough people that agree that a document (software) format solution is needed. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be enough people to create a quorum to discuss all the issues, and come up with a solution. As far as storage (hardware), the biggest problem there has always been the lack of thought to backwards compatability when upgrading to new formats. This is the same issue as with doing regular and proper backups, and that cause is simple laziness. In either case, the problems are easily solveable by simply getting everyone involved together, and getting them dedicated to finding the solution. The solution will kick-start the industry, making everyone happy. It just amazes me that we've had to wait so long for everyone involved to come to their senses and "git 'er done." Microsoft's solution is typical of them: "Yes, we agree that we all need a standardized format. Here, use ours!" A better solution for MS documents is to convert them to HTML (using their own tools), then strip out all the extraneous XHTML that they add (which is only there to reconvert their HTML back to their applications, and is otherwise useless). But as I've maintained, an HTML- or XML-based format is already established and useable. MS should be embracing OEBPS, if they want to be part of the solution, and not part of the problem. Last edited by Steven Lyle Jordan; 07-05-2007 at 11:25 AM.

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07-04-2007, 11:46 AM	#16
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Ah, I fondly (sorta) remember my computer room days... mounting tapes in the middle of the night for users, hoisting platters of disks, running the occasional card batch... backing up data to microfiche.... I used to have a big spool of paper tape, but that got discarded in some move long ago.

07-06-2007, 09:45 AM	#19
UncleDuke books & doughnuts Posts: 882 Karma: 37857 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: usa Device: sony reader, kindle2	even the old standard of ink on paper is breaking down maybe we should go back to stone carving

07-11-2007, 01:18 AM	#22
Red Alert Zealot Posts: 114 Karma: 1020754 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Silverdale, Washington Device: NookColor & Nook Tablet. Sony PRS-505 loaned to brother.	I was perusing the Library of Congress website just yesterday and they have a whole section devoted to the conversion and conservation of e-media. There is a user participation option as well. Red

07-11-2007, 08:27 AM	#23
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	Sounds interesting, Red Alert -- is there a link you might could post to it?

07-11-2007, 10:24 AM	#24
Bob Russell Recovering Gadget Addict Posts: 5,381 Karma: 676161 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Device: iPad	I never really thought about it much before this thread, but how secure do we feel our current technology is? I mean, can we envision a human disaster that would leave us without the long term ability to read DVDs, hard drives, etc? If we move away from paper archival, then we are very dependent on technology to read magnetic storage. But that's not the sort of thing you can do by just being clever - you have to maintain your technological and manufacturing capacity. If we had a major disaster in the form of an asteroid hit, plague, nuclear holocaust, etc would we really expect to be able to preserve digital archives for any period of time? And of all times in human history, that would be when we most need to preserve the knowledge and history of humans in order to survive. What a shame if it knocked us into another dark ages due to the digital dependence. I hadn't thought about this before, but now I think I would staunchly support preservation of a significant body of literature and technical books in paper form! Of course, it's a moot point in the near future because paper books are not going away any time soon, no matter how popular e-books get!

07-11-2007, 10:34 AM	#25
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	We're far away in a technological loop where if something major happened, we could not build back all our machines that were built by other machines. Nothing is hand done in the critical techno side. That is a major reason not to trust precious data to only technological archiving. We need paper in a parallel support. And maybe microfilm.

07-11-2007, 01:54 PM	#26
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	I don't know about you, but I find the print on microfilm entirely too small to read without a machine.

07-11-2007, 01:57 PM	#27
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	Agreed! A simple projection device can be made by hand, which is the basis for my including it.

07-11-2007, 02:10 PM	#28
Bob Russell Recovering Gadget Addict Posts: 5,381 Karma: 676161 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Device: iPad	But I think Yvan is on to something... at least with microfilm (if it can be preserved easily over long periods of time), it doesn't require sophisticated technology. It's relatively simple to magnify an image and people can probably maintain much of that knowledge in a way that allows even a group of people with very little technology to figure out how to read it. You can see the difference easily if you compare it to the complexity of giving them a hard drive and no computers or electricity! But microfilm at least has a chance to be read.

07-11-2007, 02:19 PM	#29
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	Yeah, but the eyestrain!

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07-11-2007, 03:06 PM	#30
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	Geez! Those smilies get me every time. You're an artist in their use NatCh!