02-07-2009, 10:36 AM | #571 | |
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Blithely accepting that it means real camel, real needle, means trusting the accuracy of the translators... in the KJV, that's the ones who put unicorns in seven verses. Camel hair literally? No. But I've had plenty of practice with threads too big for the needle involved. It doesn't matter that it's easier to thread wiry strands than floppy ones when both are larger than the eye. |
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02-07-2009, 10:39 AM | #572 |
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Now this thread gets interesting. I love translation debates
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02-07-2009, 10:40 AM | #573 | |
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02-07-2009, 10:41 AM | #574 | |
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This story dates from the 9th century, and seems to be a complete invention. In the three gospels that mention the saying, Matthew and Mark use the word for sewing needle, but Luke uses the word for a surgeon's needle.
http://www.bteministries.org/node/160 Quote:
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02-07-2009, 10:46 AM | #575 |
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I'm not judging it on the KJV translation. Admittedly, neither have I taken a year or two to learn Greek and personally examined the earliest extant manuscripts.
What I have done it read lots of explanations and opinions, including several annotated word-by-word translations, and comparisons with other phrases in the Bible and other old texts. I don't see any other way to read it. But I also realise I've been taking things far too seriously, and spending far too much time on this. Feel free to interpret it as you wish. http://xkcd.com/386/ |
02-07-2009, 10:49 AM | #576 |
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Wasn't it Archimedes who said something to the effect, "Give me a lever long enough ... and I'll put a camel through the eye of a needle."?
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02-07-2009, 10:50 AM | #577 |
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02-07-2009, 10:51 AM | #578 | |
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edit * finally, i think this is it: http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Pfann.pdf I really hate that Naked Archaeologist fellow. I'm an athiest, but I would NEVER blatantly twist facts to get people to doubt their faith. Last edited by lilac_jive; 02-07-2009 at 10:58 AM. |
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02-07-2009, 11:08 AM | #579 | ||
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Remember that wealth was perceived at the time as a mark of righteousness and God's favor. It's important to following the discussion -- here's the relevant part of the exchange: Quote:
One of the things that makes understanding what the Bible says about various things difficult is that a lot of folks leave God out of it when they read it. What I mean by that is that the things written there are predicated upon the existence of an all-powerful, supernatural being. If the reader cannot or will not -- at least for the sake of understanding what's being said -- read the words with that subtext in mind, they'll never understand a lot of what it says. Consider this statement for example: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” If you consider that it was said with the existence of God as a sub-text (you don't have to believe it to consider that), it's a simple statement that's no trouble at all to follow. However, if you insist on parsing it with a "there is no God" perspective, it's just gibberish, and you'll never be able to even follow what it says. This is a pretty obvious one, and very few folks would try to read it that latter way, but they'll do exactly that without even batting an eye on the more obscure parts. The Bible is just like any other book in that sense: you have to consider it on its own terms to follow what it says. That is not the same thing as accepting it as true. I very much enjoy Anne McCaffrey's books (not so much Todd's, I regret to say) -- but I don't really believe that there's a planet out there in the Sagittarius sector which will one day be dubbed "Pern." I'm not suggesting that anyone simply accept that there is a God and get in line, have some cool-aid, and be happy. I'm only pointing out that if you consider the Bible within the terms in which it was written, a lot of the apparent illogic and contradiction disappears. In this case, I guess what I'm talking about would fall somewhere between suspension of disbelief and suspension of judgment. |
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02-07-2009, 11:14 AM | #580 | |
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Thank you for "shedding light" on it for us. |
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02-07-2009, 11:36 AM | #581 |
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Ha! "Shedding light." Hee-hee-snort!
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02-07-2009, 11:40 AM | #582 |
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No pun intended .
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02-07-2009, 11:42 AM | #583 |
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But very much perceived! Those are the very bestest kind!
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02-07-2009, 01:42 PM | #584 | |
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I haven't actually seen any of the Naked Archeologist episodes, but am certainly aware of the Jesus Tomb controversy. It is worth pointing out, that the Christian forums abound with accusations that he "twists facts" because he is an Orthodox Jew, which, if indeed the case (and it's just as likely to be ratings,) would simply be another example of the inherent in any religion "my god is the only true one, and yours is a myth" maxima. But doubting "faith" actually may cause people to think, which is often a good thing. Particularly in a country, where 53% of the population would automatically vote against an atheist for a President, without thinking: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/arc...n_or_atheist_/ P.S. Hey, this post bumped me up to the level of "Zealot" Last edited by Sonist; 02-07-2009 at 01:55 PM. |
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02-07-2009, 01:55 PM | #585 | |
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I want people to think, but I really don't want people to question their religion because of horribly misconstrued facts. It makes me sick. And I'm not even talking about the immense disservice he is doing to archaeology as a whole. |
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