Legacy formats are ticking time bomb for lost data - Page 5

NatCh · 07-16-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

The people trying to make money from custom formats wouldn't probably like this suggestion, I guess.

Oh, yes, and they're the people I most want to make happy!

Panurge · 07-21-2007, 12:01 AM

I'm a professor, a director of a library, and an author, as well as an owner of a Sony Reader (to say nothing of computers dating back to the seventies and user of computers dating back to the sixties--I'm 67).
I am also interested in semiotics and a number of disciplines that deal with the whole problem of signs and meanings, to say nothing of foreign languages ranging from French to Russian and Chinese.
I mention all of this only to iindicate that the problem we face is no less than monumental. It affects everyone from the most academic type (me) to the casual reader of best sellers (not me).
For a comparable shift in technology, we have to go back to the transition from oral to written preservation (various dates from 1500 or so BC to the 15th century CE), the development of moveable type (Gutenberg) to the 1980s or 90s. I am in a profession that works at converting earlier modes of preserving information into later ones. I move from oral transmission to manuscript to early typesetting to linotype to photo-offset to digital to--whatever we have now.
Print was viewed as a miracle in the early 16th century; it changed the relationship of reader to information in a decisive fashion (Elizabeth Eisenberg, Marshall McLuhan (The Gutenberg Galasxy), etc. The digital revolution retrieves both the oral and the print revolutions.
We're going to be sorting this business out for some time to come. Confusion and concern will be ours for some time to come. Get used to it.
I love the new technology. As the director of a library, I see it as an extension of the goal of all libraries, which is to make information available to those who need it. I don't care what format it is in, so long as it is available to those who need it to need it to further our understanding of ourselves and the world.
But the situation in which we find ourselves is unprecedented. How shall we keep up with everything that is available to us, even in the limited arrangements of the present? This is the dilemma I face as the head of a library and as a researcher in my own right. The hardware is wonderful, but how can we navigate through this morass of information? That is my problem. The future lies not simply in availability but in the the ability to navigate, identify, and judge what is important and what is superfluous. That is the professorial side of me. I love the hardware, but I recognize that it offers new challenges that we have not yet begun to comtemplate.

Panurge · 07-21-2007, 12:03 AM

Forgive the typos I have spotted. I am using a rather awkward arrangement because of a broken left wrist.

Panurge · 07-21-2007, 12:06 AM

I'm a professor, a director of a library, and an author, as well as an owner of a Sony Reader (to say nothing of computers dating back to the seventies and user of computers dating back to the sixties--I'm 67).
I am also interested in semiotics and a number of disciplines that deal with the whole problem of signs and meanings, to say nothing of foreign languages ranging from French to Russian and Chinese.
I mention all of this only to iindicate that the problem we face is no less than monumental. It affects everyone from the most academic type (me) to the casual reader of best sellers (not me).
For a comparable shift in technology, we have to go back to the transition from oral to written preservation (various dates from 1500 or so BC to the 15th century CE), the development of moveable type (Gutenberg) to the 1980s or 90s. I am in a profession that works at converting earlier modes of preserving information into later ones. I move from oral transmission to manuscript to early typesetting to linotype to photo-offset to digital to--whatever we have now.
Print was viewed as a miracle in the early 16th century; it changed the relationship of reader to information in a decisive fashion (Elizabeth Eisenberg, Marshall McLuhan (The Gutenberg Galasxy), etc. The digital revolution retrieves both the oral and the print revolutions.
We're going to be sorting this business out for some time to come. Confusion and concern will be ours for some time to come. Get used to it.
I love the new technology. As the director of a library, I see it as an extension of the goal of all libraries, which is to make information available to those who need it. I don't care what format it is in, so long as it is available to those who need it to need it to further our understanding of ourselves and the world.
But the situation in which we find ourselves is unprecedented. How shall we keep up with everything that is available to us, even in the limited arrangements of the present? This is the dilemma I face as the head of a library and as a researcher in my own right. The hardware is wonderful, but how can we navigate through this morass of information? That is my problem. The future lies not simply in availability but in the the ability to navigate, identify, and judge what is important and what is superfluous. That is the professorial side of me. I love the hardware, but I recognize that it offers new challenges that we have not yet begun to comtemplate.

Panurge · 07-21-2007, 12:12 AM

I started out with punchcards, went on to 8" discs, and everything that lay beyond. We're just beginning. The best is yet to come, if we don't blow ourselves and everyone else up.
(I must add that I don't think we will; I love technology, but I recognize that human nature changes less rapidly than our means of manipulating data.)

NatCh · 07-21-2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panurge

Forgive the typos I have spotted. I am using a rather awkward arrangement because of a broken left wrist.

Nobody's going to care much about typos here, Panurge. Once you've been around a while, some folks might tease you a bit over it (the certainly do me, anyway

).

It's interesting to hear the librarian/archivist's take on these matters. Most of us have ideas and theories, but they're built on very different experiences.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 07-21-2007, 08:33 AM

I've heard others lament the big problem of sorting through all the available content to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I agree, that may be the toughest battle of all. However, I think people are so dedicated to such a pursuit, as it is essentially part of human nature, that we will figure out a way, though it's anyone's guess whether it will be through direct examination or by use of technology, or some combination of both. (With coming up on 7 billion people on the planet, a 100% human-based filtering system is a distinct possibility, I think, just to give those people jobs.)

Fortunately, the establishment of this digital information age we're in means that it is easier to store data, to copy data, and to convert it to new formats as needed, with the application of much less effort than it would have taken to manually copy documents in the past. Therefore, the sooner old formatted documents can be converted to digital formats, the better (certainly the second toughest battle).

And as we work, we'll be constantly working out new and better ways to store more information, both the data itself, and the history of that data... systems like OEBPS that allow any amount of a document's history (author, origination, copyrights, original recording method, number of conversions, retranslations, etc, etc) to be included with the document itself, and not hunted up from a separate source, will be essential.

Hopefully, we'll also figure out a way to detect falsified documents and historical data, something that's far too easy to fake now, and could represent the third biggest challenge of the digital era... separating the lies from the truth.

yvanleterrible · 07-21-2007, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panurge

But the situation in which we find ourselves is unprecedented. How shall we keep up with everything that is available to us, even in the limited arrangements of the present? This is the dilemma I face as the head of a library and as a researcher in my own right. The hardware is wonderful, but how can we navigate through this morass of information? That is my problem. The future lies not simply in availability but in the the ability to navigate, identify, and judge what is important and what is superfluous. That is the professorial side of me. I love the hardware, but I recognize that it offers new challenges that we have not yet begun to comtemplate.

I've been following the same path although through the eyes of a historian. If I may suggest, take a more profound look at two other media that follow a similar path; photography and music. Both are undergoing complete transformation and are several years ahead of the book in their evolution. Examining those moves might bring some light and give you ideas as how you might anticipate the next steps and lead the development through a less anarchic pace.

Looking forward to read you more.

nekokami · 07-21-2007, 06:10 PM

Finding, filtering, and presenting the best of content from a particular perspective has been a profession for a while-- that's what editors are supposed to be doing for us, whether they are editors of newspapers, book lines, or music recording companies (though I suppose they have a different title there). I think it's a service worth paying for, too. We often discuss how content creators should be compensated for their work in the digital era, but this is another group whose circumstances are being rapidly altered by the new technology, but whose services are still needed. I'm hoping to see more independent publishers online that recreate the editorial lines of years ago, when one could buy books in a particular publishing line with some confidence that the quality and style would be reliably consistent with what had been published before, and the compensation went mostly to the author and editor, rather than to nameless, faceless "investors" somewhere.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 07-21-2007, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

I'm hoping to see more independent publishers online that recreate the editorial lines of years ago, when one could buy books in a particular publishing line with some confidence that the quality and style would be reliably consistent with what had been published before, and the compensation went mostly to the author and editor, rather than to nameless, faceless "investors" somewhere.

Is that even legal?

NatCh · 07-22-2007, 12:21 AM

If it weren't, it'd probably happen more.

07-21-2007, 12:01 AM	#62
Panurge Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 336 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Device: Sony Reader	Yet one more time.... I'm a professor, a director of a library, and an author, as well as an owner of a Sony Reader (to say nothing of computers dating back to the seventies and user of computers dating back to the sixties--I'm 67). I am also interested in semiotics and a number of disciplines that deal with the whole problem of signs and meanings, to say nothing of foreign languages ranging from French to Russian and Chinese. I mention all of this only to iindicate that the problem we face is no less than monumental. It affects everyone from the most academic type (me) to the casual reader of best sellers (not me). For a comparable shift in technology, we have to go back to the transition from oral to written preservation (various dates from 1500 or so BC to the 15th century CE), the development of moveable type (Gutenberg) to the 1980s or 90s. I am in a profession that works at converting earlier modes of preserving information into later ones. I move from oral transmission to manuscript to early typesetting to linotype to photo-offset to digital to--whatever we have now. Print was viewed as a miracle in the early 16th century; it changed the relationship of reader to information in a decisive fashion (Elizabeth Eisenberg, Marshall McLuhan (The Gutenberg Galasxy), etc. The digital revolution retrieves both the oral and the print revolutions. We're going to be sorting this business out for some time to come. Confusion and concern will be ours for some time to come. Get used to it. I love the new technology. As the director of a library, I see it as an extension of the goal of all libraries, which is to make information available to those who need it. I don't care what format it is in, so long as it is available to those who need it to need it to further our understanding of ourselves and the world. But the situation in which we find ourselves is unprecedented. How shall we keep up with everything that is available to us, even in the limited arrangements of the present? This is the dilemma I face as the head of a library and as a researcher in my own right. The hardware is wonderful, but how can we navigate through this morass of information? That is my problem. The future lies not simply in availability but in the the ability to navigate, identify, and judge what is important and what is superfluous. That is the professorial side of me. I love the hardware, but I recognize that it offers new challenges that we have not yet begun to comtemplate.

07-21-2007, 12:06 AM	#64
Panurge Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 336 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Device: Sony Reader	Yet one more time.... I'm a professor, a director of a library, and an author, as well as an owner of a Sony Reader (to say nothing of computers dating back to the seventies and user of computers dating back to the sixties--I'm 67). I am also interested in semiotics and a number of disciplines that deal with the whole problem of signs and meanings, to say nothing of foreign languages ranging from French to Russian and Chinese. I mention all of this only to iindicate that the problem we face is no less than monumental. It affects everyone from the most academic type (me) to the casual reader of best sellers (not me). For a comparable shift in technology, we have to go back to the transition from oral to written preservation (various dates from 1500 or so BC to the 15th century CE), the development of moveable type (Gutenberg) to the 1980s or 90s. I am in a profession that works at converting earlier modes of preserving information into later ones. I move from oral transmission to manuscript to early typesetting to linotype to photo-offset to digital to--whatever we have now. Print was viewed as a miracle in the early 16th century; it changed the relationship of reader to information in a decisive fashion (Elizabeth Eisenberg, Marshall McLuhan (The Gutenberg Galasxy), etc. The digital revolution retrieves both the oral and the print revolutions. We're going to be sorting this business out for some time to come. Confusion and concern will be ours for some time to come. Get used to it. I love the new technology. As the director of a library, I see it as an extension of the goal of all libraries, which is to make information available to those who need it. I don't care what format it is in, so long as it is available to those who need it to need it to further our understanding of ourselves and the world. But the situation in which we find ourselves is unprecedented. How shall we keep up with everything that is available to us, even in the limited arrangements of the present? This is the dilemma I face as the head of a library and as a researcher in my own right. The hardware is wonderful, but how can we navigate through this morass of information? That is my problem. The future lies not simply in availability but in the the ability to navigate, identify, and judge what is important and what is superfluous. That is the professorial side of me. I love the hardware, but I recognize that it offers new challenges that we have not yet begun to comtemplate.

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07-21-2007, 12:03 AM	#63
Panurge Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 336 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Device: Sony Reader	Forgive the typos I have spotted. I am using a rather awkward arrangement because of a broken left wrist.

07-21-2007, 12:12 AM	#65
Panurge Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 336 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Device: Sony Reader	I started out with punchcards, went on to 8" discs, and everything that lay beyond. We're just beginning. The best is yet to come, if we don't blow ourselves and everyone else up. (I must add that I don't think we will; I love technology, but I recognize that human nature changes less rapidly than our means of manipulating data.)

07-21-2007, 08:33 AM	#67
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	I've heard others lament the big problem of sorting through all the available content to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I agree, that may be the toughest battle of all. However, I think people are so dedicated to such a pursuit, as it is essentially part of human nature, that we will figure out a way, though it's anyone's guess whether it will be through direct examination or by use of technology, or some combination of both. (With coming up on 7 billion people on the planet, a 100% human-based filtering system is a distinct possibility, I think, just to give those people jobs.) Fortunately, the establishment of this digital information age we're in means that it is easier to store data, to copy data, and to convert it to new formats as needed, with the application of much less effort than it would have taken to manually copy documents in the past. Therefore, the sooner old formatted documents can be converted to digital formats, the better (certainly the second toughest battle). And as we work, we'll be constantly working out new and better ways to store more information, both the data itself, and the history of that data... systems like OEBPS that allow any amount of a document's history (author, origination, copyrights, original recording method, number of conversions, retranslations, etc, etc) to be included with the document itself, and not hunted up from a separate source, will be essential. Hopefully, we'll also figure out a way to detect falsified documents and historical data, something that's far too easy to fake now, and could represent the third biggest challenge of the digital era... separating the lies from the truth.

07-21-2007, 06:10 PM	#69
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Finding, filtering, and presenting the best of content from a particular perspective has been a profession for a while-- that's what editors are supposed to be doing for us, whether they are editors of newspapers, book lines, or music recording companies (though I suppose they have a different title there). I think it's a service worth paying for, too. We often discuss how content creators should be compensated for their work in the digital era, but this is another group whose circumstances are being rapidly altered by the new technology, but whose services are still needed. I'm hoping to see more independent publishers online that recreate the editorial lines of years ago, when one could buy books in a particular publishing line with some confidence that the quality and style would be reliably consistent with what had been published before, and the compensation went mostly to the author and editor, rather than to nameless, faceless "investors" somewhere.

07-22-2007, 12:21 AM	#71
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	If it weren't, it'd probably happen more.