When the Internet runs out of space?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Wooosh!

That was the sound of the conversation going over my head...

He just said that IPv6 will communicate pretty much like the existing IPv4 does, only with lots more connections available.

It's the additional connections that make communications with every frikkin' thing under the sun possible, but it won't change what can be communicated. It would only change the potential amount of specific data that can be collected.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

He just said that IPv6 will communicate pretty much like the existing IPv4 does, only with lots more connections available.

It's the additional connections that make communications with every frikkin' thing under the sun possible, but it won't change what can be communicated. It would only change the potential amount of specific data that can be collected.

Oooh, Ok.

[pholy]

It's the additional connections that make communications with every frikkin' thing under the sun possible

But not inevitable. I don't have to buy the toaster or fridge with the network connection. I don't have to open my firewall to any device within my home. I will find a way to disable any wireless connection (except, perhaps my cellphone) that tries to bypass my firewall.

In a democracy, we have (in theory) the ability to pass laws to force manufacturers to allow us control over the devices we buy. Don't we?

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by pholy

But not inevitable. I don't have to buy the toaster or fridge with the network connection. I don't have to open my firewall to any device within my home. I will find a way to disable any wireless connection (except, perhaps my cellphone) that tries to bypass my firewall.

In a democracy, we have (in theory) the ability to pass laws to force manufacturers to allow us control over the devices we buy. Don't we?

One would hope. Are they required to let you know that the item being purchased is networked? Or can they just slip some nanobots into your tea and sugar, flipping the switch later? *

*Referece to The Iron Duke

[jbcohen]

Let's say that today is the last day that IPV4 can operate, what differences would I notice tomorrow if I did not have IPV6 hardware installed? Would I be able to reach the net at all?

[sircastor]

y'know, FWIW (and forgive me, I didn't read through every post in the thread) a lot of this is already happening: Not IPv6 mind. Consider that if you've got more than one computer in your house, you're already assigning an IP address to each, it just happens to be abstracted from the public blocks. IPv4 has several blocks that are reserved for various private network uses (the 192.168 block, and the 10 block for instance). Your house probably does it, your work almost certainly does it. Schools, libraries, coffee shops, etc. etc.

It'll be interesting to see how IPv6 plays out. It used to be that you could buy a static IP address from your ISP. These days I haven't seen any ISP that's selling static addresses to home users. When IP addresses are as common as sand on the beach, will the ISPs let up?

As for privacy issues, if you're on the internet your privacy is not very secure to begin with. Your ISP knows which IP you're using, where it's calling data from and a great deal more. Unless you're putting forth a dedicated effort to obscure what you do (TOR for instance) It's easy for a lot of people to know what you're doing (Facebook and Amazon know all kinds of things about you!)

The change over to IPv6 isn't an issue that'll affect this much.

[Caltsar]

The paranoia over every device having internet connectivity and an outside accessible IP address is a little overblown. First of all, the networking hardware adds cost to production and design and if there is one thing companies love more than anything, it is cutting costs. Unless you specifically buy into a smart-home type system, the sort of connectivity that people are predicting will happen with IPv6 simply won't happen without specifically opting in. And if a product is smart and network enabled, I have no doubt it will be advertised prominently on the box.

That said, even if a product does come with hidden network connectivity, it'll either be piggybacking on your local network or include its own cell modem (and since using your network is far cheaper in terms of hardware and data costs for the company... worrying about a hidden cell modem doesn't seem likely). Anything on your local network is something that's very easy to control. IPv6 won't be taking away security, but it will bring greater opportunities to bring more and more devices online.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by pholy

But not inevitable. I don't have to buy the toaster or fridge with the network connection. I don't have to open my firewall to any device within my home. I will find a way to disable any wireless connection (except, perhaps my cellphone) that tries to bypass my firewall.

In a democracy, we have (in theory) the ability to pass laws to force manufacturers to allow us control over the devices we buy. Don't we?

Only to an extent. Obviously, where safety is a concern, consumers are generally forbidden to alter some devices (you're not allowed to disable the seatbelts in your car, to reconfigure a radio to transmit over private radio bands, to rewire your house and ignore established safety codes, etc). Safety probably won't be a concern in the case of a lot of home products, but things like plug-in electrical devices (which can cause electrocution and fires) could conceivably come under a "no tampering" law. And if the government decides some of those safety items must communicate with outside institutions, it could become illegal to tamper with your own firewall to prevent it!

Hopefully, there will continue to be products available that will not have network connections. But we can't assume even that, if the companies believe the IP connections do more good than harm, and if they can convince most customers to buy them under the idea of getting this perk or that. Such companies could lobby the government to expand "no tampering" to all of their products, and we know from past history that that is entirely possible. (Another reason we need to break the lobbying stranglehold over our government officials.)

So, the sad news is that we may have little choice in the matter in the long run... that's a worst-case scenario. At the very least, we'll probably have to accept IP communications in some devices but not in others.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by jbcohen

Let's say that today is the last day that IPV4 can operate, what differences would I notice tomorrow if I did not have IPV6 hardware installed? Would I be able to reach the net at all?

Yes, you would. Most ISPs are already preparing to access the IPv6 Internet... you wouldn't notice a difference at home, unless your ISP didn't make those adjustments, and you'd discover you couldn't access new websites set up on the IPv6 network. Or, if your ISP switched over to exclusive IPv6, you'd only be able to access new websites, but none of the ones that are on IPv4 right now.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

One would hope. Are they required to let you know that the item being purchased is networked? Or can they just slip some nanobots into your tea and sugar, flipping the switch later? *

*Referece to The Iron Duke

Unless you're talking 3g thingies, no connexion without you using a cable, or setting up the wi-fi.

So, the sad news is that we may have little choice in the matter in the long run...

Unless they makes laws to actually force us to buy stuff... We always have a choice.

[IcecreamLtDan]

I must admit to a bit of confusion about this thread as well. All an IP address is, is an address that's assigned to a device that's connected to the internet. The idea is all but identical to your physical address to your house. When your computer is on the internet it's assigned an IP address that identifies it to the internet, that way it knows who your computer is and can route traffic to and from it. Just like how you receive your mail at home. IPv4 is the name of the addressing system that's been in use on the internet for quite some time now. The problem is, when the system was designed no one had any idea that the internet would get so big, so fast. As such, they are rapidly running out of unique addresses that can be assigned to a computer or device. So an new system has been created, it's called IPv6. That's it, in a nutshell, that's the whole deal. There's nothing devious or sneaky about it, at least no more than what's been currently going on on the internet all along.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by IcecreamLtDan

That's it, in a nutshell, that's the whole deal.

Almost. There's also the possibilities inherent when every electronic item in your house can have its own IP address, making for the possibility of even more extensive data collection on households and, by extension, individuals.

[DiapDealer]

Almost. There's also the possibilities inherent when every electronic item in your house can have its own IP address, making for the possibility of even more extensive data collection on households and, by extension, individuals.

What you're not understanding is that can happen right now with IPv4. The lack of PUBLIC IP addresses does not hinder this in any way. Your home could have one real ip address and still provide access for an almost limitless amount of devices. The massive data collection you're predicting would have have nothing to do with IPv6 if it happens.

Even when IPv6 comes to be, nobody is going to waste public addresses on toasters, refrigerators and toothbrushes--and even if they did... giving them a real IP address isn't going to work with a home networking wireless router. Each device would have to have its own wireless modem (3G, 4G, or whatever), which ain't going to happen.

I don't know how to make it any clearer: "IPv6 is not the 'droid you're looking for."

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Even when IPv6 comes to be, nobody is going to waste public addresses on toasters, refrigerators and toothbrushes--and even if they did... giving them a real IP address isn't going to work with a home networking wireless router. Each device would have to have its own wireless modem (3G, 4G, or whatever), which ain't going to happen.

To which I point out the quote from the article:

In Japan, for instance, some of the taxis have IPv6 addresses in their windscreen wipers. When taxies turn on their wipers, the cab company knows and can send lots of cabs to the area because it’s raining.

So, why would this be happening, and why didn't it happen sooner if IPv4 could handle it?

And why assume a home network can't be altered to accept multiple signals from IP-enabled devices?

[DiapDealer]

So, why would this be happening, and why didn't it happen sooner if IPv4 could handle it?

Again, just because it didn't happen sooner (or did and you didn't hear about it) does not mean it's attributable to IPv6. The same scenario is just as plausible (and in fact is done) under IPv4. The taxi (like the Home) need only have ONE real, public IP address. The wipers, tires, radio, AC, windows, and trunk can be assigned private addresses behind the taxi's firewall. Giving each component it's own public addressable address just doesn't make sense--and wouldn't be given the thumbs-up by any competent SysAdmin.

Basically I don't accept the premise of the article in question. It's misguided and makes illogical assumptions.

And why assume a home network can't be altered to accept multiple signals from IP-enabled devices?

I don't assume that. Of course it can be altered to accept multiple signals from IP-enabled devices. That happen right now already. But public addresses can't easily be assigned to devices on a private network that sits behind a NATing router. That's a routing nightmare.

Having a publically registered IP address assigned to a device does not equal "having an internet connection." And there's no way that a device that had a public IP address could automatically connect to a user's home network. Each device would need to have its own separate and independent internet connection (wireless cellular modem) for it to be plausible.