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Old 02-05-2009, 05:49 AM   #511
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Generally speaking, however, people who live in grinding poverty are poorly educated, so the correlation between education and religious belief does, I think, still hold true.
Yes, I agree the correlation holds up, but maybe poverty leads to poor education, so is closer to the root cause.

I think a poorly educated affluent person is less likely to be religious than an impoverished poorly educated person - because religion offers the poor hope for something better; the wealthier you are, the less your need for such comfort. Actually, God gets in the way if you can afford to enjoy a hedonistic lifestyle.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:53 AM   #512
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I think a poorly educated affluent person is less likely to be religious than an impoverished poorly educated person - because religion offers the poor hope for something better; the wealthier you are, the less your need for such comfort. Actually, God gets in the way if you can afford to enjoy a hedonistic lifestyle.
Well, the Bible does say "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven", so I'm somewhat at a loss to see how any wealthy person can claim to be a Christian - they are certainly not following the tenets of Jesus' teaching, which tells them to give away all their possessions!
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:37 AM   #513
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tompe - you are still ignoring my first point, which is that most charity is domestic and not reflected in foreign giving numbers.
Oh, I missed that since the original statement was about foreign aid.

I would say that in some countries you do not need domestic donation since you have a working welfare system. Which seems to me to be a much better solution to the problem.

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Your claim about charitable giving being an example of egoism rather than virtue is a splendid example of advanced philosophical thinking.
Pretty basic philosophical thinking. If you use terms you have to understand them. You claim for the reason of donations seems to me to be more of wishful thinking.
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:43 AM   #514
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Within those, merely human, limitations, I can only say that the charitable donations I, personally, make are based primarily on two things: a desire to help others who are less fortunate than I, and an acceptance of a responsibility to use the resources in my keeping in the service the God that I believe in.
Your wish to fulfill your desire is a form of egoism. I am thinking about the philosophical discussion of altruism. Doing something because it is a responsibility might also be problematic in the same way that altruism is problematic.

It was "reflects individual virtue" I felt was not a correct description if there was a large part of egoistical thinking involved. But maybe I am using another definition of "virtue" than was intended.

Last edited by tompe; 02-05-2009 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:13 AM   #515
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Your wish to fulfill you desire is a form of egoism. I am thinking about the philosophical discussion of altruism. Doing something because it is a responsibility might also be problematic in the same way that altruism is problematic.

It was "reflects individual virtue" I felt was not a correct description if there was a large part of egoistical thinking involved. But maybe I am using another definition of "virtue" than was intended.
I think that is entirely reasonable and only appears negative if we consider all forms of egoism as bad.

One particular Buddhist sect particularly fond of technical issues defines a Buddha as a being that has totally fulfilled the two needs. The two needs being 1. The beings own needs and 2. All other beings needs.

I think this recognizes that own needs and desires are tied into everything and we just need to work with it
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:26 AM   #516
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Well, the Bible does say "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven", so I'm somewhat at a loss to see how any wealthy person can claim to be a Christian - they are certainly not following the tenets of Jesus' teaching, which tells them to give away all their possessions!
The context is extremely important on both of those.

The first is a cultural context: in the Patriarchal times, wealth was seen as evidence of God's favor on the person (think Solomon), and therefore direct evidence of that person's righteousness. From that context this is as much a comment on how righteous a person had to be to get to Heaven on their own. But of course Jesus' whole point in being here was so that folks wouldn't have to make it on their own righteousness. There's also the factor, alluded to in an earlier post, that wealth tends to, lets call it "distract" a person from considering spiritual things. People who are "fat and happy" (metaphorically speaking) tend not to think about such things.

Jesus did tell a few people to sell/give away all their possessions, but it wasn't a general teaching. He also said that the worker is worthy of his hire.

The point there (as I understand it) is more to stop regarding the material things and wealth as "ours" and regard it more as having been placed in our keeping -- a stewardship role, which is effectively relinquishing claim over them in favor of accepting responsibility to the true owner for caring for and using those things properly. Rather a different thing altogether.

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Your wish to fulfill your desire is a form of egoism. I am thinking about the philosophical discussion of altruism. Doing something because it is a responsibility might also be problematic in the same way that altruism is problematic.
Ah I see what you're saying ... though I must admit that it sounds like one of those philosophical finger-puzzles that can be used to largely dismiss anything. In the circumstance I was referring to, the responsibility is a self accepted one -- not one forced from the outside, also unlike taxes -- frankly, given recent events here in the U.S., I'm beginning to wonder how many of those who impose the taxes actually pay those taxes themselves.


On the topic of education and affluence, I'm personally acquainted with a fair number of folks who are (certainly by general world standards) reasonably "wealthy" and quite well educated (PhD level) who embrace a Christian faith.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:32 AM   #517
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The assertion that well-educated people are less prone to superstitious beliefs seems a reasonable one to me. Education teaches people to seek rational explanations for the world around them, rather than believe in "invisible supernatural beings".
I have also held to that opinion. Trouble is, there are very educated people who have found or developed rational explanations for their religion.
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Old 02-05-2009, 10:02 AM   #518
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In the circumstance I was referring to, the responsibility is a self accepted one -- not one forced from the outside, also unlike taxes -- frankly, given recent events here in the U.S., I'm beginning to wonder how many of those who impose the taxes actually pay those taxes themselves.
I think there are social pressure or similar things that makes people accept these kind of responsibility. But maybe I am wrong.

In the US when you donate money do you keep it secret or do you tell a lot of people that you have donated money? In Sweden it is relatively common that people donate money to organisations like "Doctors withou a border" but usually that is not something they tell other people about.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:06 AM   #519
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I think there are social pressure or similar things that makes people accept these kind of responsibility. But maybe I am wrong.
Sure there's some of that, but it's necessarily hard to quantify -- it's going to vary wildly from case to case, and be largely invisible.

Certainly, I've accepted the responsibility I'm talking about because of what I've been taught, but I made the choices to accept those teachings or not, and I didn't accept the responsibility itself until I'd accepted the teachings to the point that they changed the way I looked at and did things. "Grew up," if you like.

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In the US when you donate money do you keep it secret or do you tell a lot of people that you have donated money? In Sweden it is relatively common that people donate money to organisations like "Doctors withou a border" but usually that is not something they tell other people about.
I'd say that would depend a great deal on the person, for myself, I don't go around noising about the donations I make, nor any other type of service to others I might engage in. I can't think of anyone off-hand that does, actually.

Generally speaking that sort of thing would be considered bragging, and therefore self-aggrandizing, and in rather poor taste.

I knew that my mother did things for others and gave donations while I was growing up, so I had it modeled for me, but I'm pretty sure that most other folks had no idea. In fact, Jesus had something to say about that matter:
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Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Matt 6:1-4
Of course that last bit feeds right back into your comment about self-serving donations, and yeah, I expect a lot of folks do such things for the rewards they expect to get: it's a rather unconsidered response to that teaching, and others on the matter. However, a lot of folks do move and grow beyond that view to the point of doing "good things" because they're good, without regard for what they might get out of it. There are passages on that matter as well, but I'll refrain from dragging them out now, since they're somewhat beside the current point.

I guess my point is that even though it's pretty rare to get any real reward for doing good, at least in terms of the here and now (no good deed goes unpunished, after all!), folks still do good things anyway. Esoteric philosophies not withstanding, just dismissing that categorically seems a mite callous to me. The bit of Biblical philosophy that would seem to apply is the thing about knowing folks' hearts by the things they do.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:09 AM   #520
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In somewhat related news (in the US), Obama is creating a faith-based office.

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President Barack Obama said Thursday he will establish a White House office of faith-based initiatives that will show no favoritism to any religious group and adhere to the strict separation of church and state.
Not sure how I feel about that, but to throw it out there.

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Well, the Bible does say "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven", so I'm somewhat at a loss to see how any wealthy person can claim to be a Christian - they are certainly not following the tenets of Jesus' teaching, which tells them to give away all their possessions!
Okay, I read this and laughed. Why? I now understand a reference in a Daria episode that I never got before. (Screw Godwin's Law...everything in life I can relate back to a Daria episode.)

If you were wondering, it was in the episode "The Story of D" (season 5) when Daria walks in and Jake is trying to thread a needle and cursing at why they make the eye of the needle so small, and she replies that she guesses it was to piss of the camel.

At least, I'm guessing that's what the reference was. Much better than my previous "Huh? What does a camel have to do with it?"

Does that make up for any potentially lack of civility in my last post, HarryT? Going to go retreat back into my dorky little world now...
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:12 AM   #521
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If you were wondering, it was in the episode "The Story of D" (season 5) when Daria walks in and Jake is trying to thread a needle and cursing at why they make the eye of the needle so small, and she replies that she guesses it was to piss of the camel.

At least, I'm guessing that's what the reference was. Much better than my previous "Huh? What does a camel have to do with it?"
Ha! Yep, I'd call that a Biblical allusion. And a rather funny one at that.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:19 PM   #522
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tompe - no, the original post was not about foreign aid. That was your interpolation, presumably arising from your "priors" as the economists call them.

You say if you wish to use terms you have to understand them. Your use of the term "egoisim," though is irrelevant, unless you can distinguish "egoism" that leads to selfish actions from "egoism" that leads to virtuous actions such as donating to charity. You can use any term you want to smear the motivations of those who do good; the point is that private donation to charity is virtuous in a way that paying taxes is not.

Your comments about government-run welfare systems being superior opens such a huge topic that it's not worth discussing in detail. Suffice it to say that a lot of people disagree that government welfare is a good idea; and in fact it was partially dismantled in the United States about fifteen years ago because the results were so disastrous. Many would argue that Europe has become stagnant and lost its leadership, and is in decline, as a result of its welfare state policies.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:09 PM   #523
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tompe - no, the original post was not about foreign aid. That was your interpolation, presumably arising from your "priors" as the economists call them.
I think you are wrong here. What I commented was:
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Of course the USA is also the most generous country in the world, and gives more in charity than any other nation on earth. I very much appreciate you bringing that up. A great point.
A country cannot give to itself. Also this quote seems to indicate that it is the country (and not individuals) that gives. I think it is impossible to read this as referring the donations inside a country.

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You say if you wish to use terms you have to understand them. Your use of the term "egoisim," though is irrelevant, unless you can distinguish "egoism" that leads to selfish actions from "egoism" that leads to virtuous actions such as donating to charity. You can use any term you want to smear the motivations of those who do good; the point is that private donation to charity is virtuous in a way that paying taxes is not.
A "good" action done for the wrong reasons is not an example that can be used to support that the action was done for the right reasons. For this thread it is the motivation to do something that is important and not the outcome.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:12 PM   #524
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I loved the opening phrase, Declaring that "there is a force for good greater than government,". IMO any good is greater than government. Probably even some bad has more good than government!
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:11 PM   #525
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The observations of the generally lower social and educational status of religious folk, are nothing new. The Greeks took note, as did the Romans.

For instance, Seneca the Younger allegedly quipped that "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."

Also, at the end of the Second Century, Celsus made the following comments about the nascent Christian sects in Rome:

"We see, indeed, in private houses workers in wool and leather, and fullers, and persons of the most uninstructed and rustic character, not venturing to utter a word in the presence of their elders and wiser masters; but when they get hold of the children privately, and certain women as ignorant as themselves, they pour forth wonderful statements, to the effect that they ought not to give heed to their father and to their teachers, but should obey them; that the former are foolish and stupid, and neither know nor can perform anything that is really good, being preoccupied with empty trifles; that they alone know how men ought to live, and that, if the children obey them, they will both be happy themselves, and will make their home happy also. And while thus speaking, if they see one of the instructors of youth approaching, or one of the more intelligent class, or even the father himself, the more timid among them become afraid, while the more forward incite the children to throw off the yoke, whispering that in the presence of father and teachers they neither will nor can explain to them any good thing, seeing they turn away with aversion from the silliness and stupidity of such persons as being altogether corrupt, and far advanced in wickedness, and such as would inflict punishment upon them; but that if they wish (to avail themselves of their aid,) they must leave their father and their instructors, and go with the women and their playfellows to the women's apartments, or to the leather shop, or to the fuller's shop, that they may attain to perfection;--and by words like these they gain them over."

Of course, we only know of Celsus from the Christian apologist Origen's Contra Celsus, since the good Christians made sure to destroy every copy of Celsus' work. Not so unlike the original poster's aim of removing the Dawkins excerpt from the Sony ereader.
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