Tell Us Your Favorite Banned Book - It's National Banned Books Week

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Yes, Harry shows both sides of humanity, but so do may others in literature and real life that aren't considered in any way "Christ like", and merely doing so is no evidence in literature of Christian theme. What I'm actually asking is how much the presence of Christian themes is necessary to your ability to appreciate the books. I can understand that finding evidence of such themes will make the book more acceptable if you belong to an evangelical sect that disapproves of them. But if you didn't find such evidence, would that have made the books unacceptable?

No the books would not have ever been "unacceptable." I like a good story, and while I didn't care so much for the first two books, I was sold with Prisoner of Azkaban since that's where Harry's "backstory" really starts to come to light, and the overlying arc of the series really begins (at least for me).

-Pie

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by SneakySnake

I never knew all these books were banned.

If they were banned, how come you all are able to read them?

I get more confused every day with this stuff. Who does all this banning?

Are the puritans taking over?

Depends on where you are. Some of the puritans never left.

Banning generally happens on a local level, based on "community standards". Some person or group decides a title is offensive and moves to have it pulled from libraries/schools/retailers. What's offensive, of course, is in the eye of the beholder, and not everyone may agree.

Often, the moves are aimed at supposedly protecting children from corrupting influences. Books with adult themes or presumed sexual content are favorite targets. I'm cynically certain that most such moves are really intended to protect the parents. Reading the books might provoke the kid to ask questions Mom and Dad aren't comfortable trying to answer.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

No the books would not have ever been "unacceptable." I like a good story, and while I didn't care so much for the first two books, I was sold with Prisoner of Azkaban since that's where Harry's "backstory" really starts to come to light, and the overlying arc of the series really begins (at least for me).

That makes sense, and I thought that might be the case.

When people are members of religious sects that issue statements against certain titles, there's always the possibility a member who reads the titles might go looking for mitigating circumstances to be able to say "No, I've read them! It's not like that at all! Look here! All of this is in accord with the teaching of our faith, and okay for me to read!" The converse is that if the communicant can't find the mitigating circumstances, they may be required to stop reading that sort of content, if they accept the right of the faith to dictate what they may read.

I'm pleased that wasn't the case here. But I am curious: what does your sect object to in the Harry Potter series?
______
Dennis

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

That makes sense, and I thought that might be the case.

When people are members of religious sects that issue statements against certain titles, there's always the possibility a member who reads the titles might go looking for mitigating circumstances to be able to say "No, I've read them! It's not like that at all! Look here! All of this is in accord with the teaching of our faith, and okay for me to read!" The converse is that if the communicant can't find the mitigating circumstances, they may be required to stop reading that sort of content, if they accept the right of the faith to dictate what they may read.

I'm pleased that wasn't the case here. But I am curious: what does your sect object to in the Harry Potter series?
______
Dennis

It's important to point out that not all of Evangelical Christianity has rejected Harry Potter. Some very famous Evangelists actually came out and said it was okay (one actually switched from "okay" to "not okay" after the last book -- the one I claim includes the Christ Figure!).

I've actually pointed out the objection, but it's so small, it's easy to miss. It all arose from Rowling's use of the term "witch" for female wizard. But understand that witchcraft is talked about in the Bible, and it's never a good thing, at all. Indeed, I have one friend who dabbled in witchcraft (not the Harry Potter type, but real-world witchcraft), and the results were pretty damn horrifying (taking him at his word). So we have the Biblical admonition of the "evils" of real witchcraft, and a book calling people "witches," and it just take one influential/loud voice to make the association, and others will be willing to run with it (forget that it's a totally invalid association in the first place!).

One further step is that some groups practicing the occult, using actual witchcraft have used the books as "recruiting tools": to evangelize. I've seen, I think, one thread about real witchcraft (not the Harry Potter type) on The Leaky Cauldron. The pastor of my church said he researched this, and it occurs in many places on the Internet. (There is a certain irony here, since Christians sometimes use the arts to evangelize to their beliefs as well.)

So, it started with the use of the term "witch," and -- at least in my church -- maintains momentum because of people "using" the books to interest others in real-world witchcraft, something Christianity considers destructive, dangerous, and if done correctly, evil because it's sourced in Satanism (my friend's experience involved Satanic imagery).

Note that witchcraft has different sects like Christianity, and some are just "paganism" or "new age" ideas repurposed. These are not what I'm referring to as "real" witchcraft; that's the kind that involves occult, Satanic imagery and rituals.

Now, I agree with Christian mainstream on "real" witchcraft's destructiveness, and I also think the books are a catalyst for some people to seek this out. But I think this even more reason for Christians to read the books. Even if I did not see the Christ Figure allusion I would say this. Because how do you talk to people about a book you've never read? Especially if you plan to "condemn" the book without having read it? (Those are rhetorical!)

Ideas are important. But if you are to discuss ideas, you need to be informed about those ideas -- and not be afraid of them! That's why I oppose book burnings (unless it's your own copy and you are doing it for personal reasons), and actually encourage book reading regardless of the topic. Heck, I know Christians who've read The Satanic Bible, and I would encourage even that!

-Pie

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

one friend who dabbled in witchcraft (not the Harry Potter type, but real-world witchcraft), and the results were pretty damn horrifying (taking him at his word).

...

One further step is that some groups practicing the occult, using actual witchcraft have used the books as "recruiting tools": to evangelize. I've seen, I think, one thread about real witchcraft

...

These are not what I'm referring to as "real" witchcraft; that's the kind that involves occult, Satanic imagery and rituals.

...

Now, I agree with Christian mainstream on "real" witchcraft's destructiveness,

http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.asp

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

It's important to point out that not all of Evangelical Christianity has rejected Harry Potter. Some very famous Evangelists actually came out and said it was okay (one actually switched from "okay" to "not okay" after the last book -- the one I claim includes the Christ Figure!).

I'd be curious to know what prompted that switch of allegiance.

I've actually pointed out the objection, but it's so small, it's easy to miss. It all arose from Rowling's use of the term "witch" for female wizard. But understand that witchcraft is talked about in the Bible, and it's never a good thing, at all. Indeed, I have one friend who dabbled in witchcraft (not the Harry Potter type, but real-world witchcraft), and the results were pretty damn horrifying (taking him at his word). So we have the Biblical admonition of the "evils" of real witchcraft, and a book calling people "witches," and it just take one influential/loud voice to make the association, and others will be willing to run with it (forget that it's a totally invalid association in the first place!).

Once the accusation is made, hysteria sets in, and the facts get lost. This sort of thing operates on a gut level, and is based in emotions, not reason. Reason has all it can do to make itself heard.

One further step is that some groups practicing the occult, using actual witchcraft have used the books as "recruiting tools": to evangelize. I've seen, I think, one thread about real witchcraft (not the Harry Potter type) on The Leaky Cauldron. The pastor of my church said he researched this, and it occurs in many places on the Internet. (There is a certain irony here, since Christians sometimes use the arts to evangelize to their beliefs as well.)

Again, the terms are slippery. I know people who consider themselves "witches" and "warlocks", but they are coming from pagan traditions where Satan isn't even recognized as an entity. They use the terms to refer to people who practice ceremonial magick which is also rooted in pagan tradition, and has no Christian frame of reference involved. Some of the pagan traditions may well have been adopted by and carried over into Christianity - early Christianity was adept at that, to make it easier to convert unbelievers - but this tends to be lost in the noise when the topic arises.

Some Christians would lump them all in the evil category, largely because of the lack of Christianity, but the witches don't fit the standard Christian definition. From their viewpoint, anyone using magic is evil, period. (I recall at least one fantasy story that had fun with the concept, postulating that if you could sell your soul to Satan for power/money/advantage, God might offer a better deal, and the protagonist had taken God's offer. The Satan minion got a rude surprise when God's guy out-magicked him.)

So, it started with the use of the term "witch," and -- at least in my church -- maintains momentum because of people "using" the books to interest others in real-world witchcraft, something Christianity considers destructive, dangerous, and if done correctly, evil because it's sourced in Satanism (my friend's experience involved Satanic imagery).

Satan is a bad place to start from. But the folks I've encountered who started there had issues to begin with, and their bad experiences were rooted in what they brought to the table.

Note that witchcraft has different sects like Christianity, and some are just "paganism" or "new age" ideas repurposed. These are not what I'm referring to as "real" witchcraft; that's the kind that involves occult, Satanic imagery and rituals.

Quite so. I know folks from several different strains of paganism. Paganism may often include the occult (and it's difficult for it not to). Satanic imagery and rituals are another matter. The pagans I know avoid such things and look down on the practitioners. People into Satanism tend to be motivated by quests for power and personal advantage. Folks from the various pagan traditions see that sort of thing as rebounding on the practitioner, and missing the point of the practices.

Now, I agree with Christian mainstream on "real" witchcraft's destructiveness, and I also think the books are a catalyst for some people to seek this out. But I think this even more reason for Christians to read the books. Even if I did not see the Christ Figure allusion I would say this. Because how do you talk to people about a book you've never read? Especially if you plan to "condemn" the book without having read it? (Those are rhetorical!)

I've seen similar issues among the fundamentalists opposed to evolution. Er, read Darwin, and refute what he said, not what someone says he said...

Ideas are important. But if you are to discuss ideas, you need to be informed about those ideas -- and not be afraid of them! That's why I oppose book burnings (unless it's your own copy and you are doing it for personal reasons), and actually encourage book reading regardless of the topic. Heck, I know Christians who've read The Satanic Bible, and I would encourage even that!

Anton LaVey's tome? Personally, I though he was a poser, interested in notoriety, and the book was unintentionally hilarious.
______
Dennis

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.asp

Drat! And I was planning to give out Harry Potter gift cards this Halloween.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'd be curious to know what prompted that switch of allegiance.


Once the accusation is made, hysteria sets in, and the facts get lost. This sort of thing operates on a gut level, and is based in emotions, not reason. Reason has all it can do to make itself heard.


Again, the terms are slippery. I know people who consider themselves "witches" and "warlocks", but they are coming from pagan traditions where Satan isn't even recognized as an entity. They use the terms to refer to people who practice ceremonial magick which is also rooted in pagan tradition, and has no Christian frame of reference involved. Some of the pagan traditions may well have been adopted by and carried over into Christianity - early Christianity was adept at that, to make it easier to convert unbelievers - but this tends to be lost in the noise when the topic arises.

Some Christians would lump them all in the evil category, largely because of the lack of Christianity, but the witches don't fit the standard Christian definition. From their viewpoint, anyone using magic is evil, period. (I recall at least one fantasy story that had fun with the concept, postulating that if you could sell your soul to Satan for power/money/advantage, God might offer a better deal, and the protagonist had taken God's offer. The Satan minion got a rude surprise when God's guy out-magicked him.)


Satan is a bad place to start from. But the folks I've encountered who started there had issues to begin with, and their bad experiences were rooted in what they brought to the table.


Quite so. I know folks from several different strains of paganism. Paganism may often include the occult (and it's difficult for it not to). Satanic imagery and rituals are another matter. The pagans I know avoid such things and look down on the practitioners. People into Satanism tend to be motivated by quests for power and personal advantage. Folks from the various pagan traditions see that sort of thing as rebounding on the practitioner, and missing the point of the practices.


I've seen similar issues among the fundamentalists opposed to evolution. Er, read Darwin, and refute what he said, not what someone says he said...


Anton LaVey's tome? Personally, I though he was a poser, interested in notoriety, and the book was unintentionally hilarious.
______
Dennis

Pre-Christian Roman law considered witchcraft real. It wasn't illegal to practice sorcery, but it was illegal to use sorcery to accomplish malicious goals.

[nyrath]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.asp

Seconded.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by nyrath

Seconded.

It gave me a flashback to the 1980s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.asp

Wow, way to hack and slash. I love how you cut that last sentence off exactly where I making the important point, the one admonishing people to read the book.

So, please, at least have the courtesy of quoting me in context -- I mean, a full sentence at least, sheesh -- or limiting your "response" to one particular statement. Because as it stands I don't know what you're even addressing.

The only relevant thing to the snopes link are my statements about Harry Potter being used to draw people to witchcraft. I certainly may be wrong about that. I didn't look into it that thoroughly, primarily trusting someone who claimed to have researched the matter. However, there certainly is at least one thread on The Leaky Cauldron discussing the links between Harry Potter and Wicca (which is not necessarily the witchcraft I was referring to).

http://www.leakylounge.com/HP-Wicca-Paganism-t2816.html.

In terms of citing my friend's experience with witchcraft, or my beliefs about the occult.... the link does not apply at all.

-Pie

[kindlekitten]

the HP world is not even remotely similar to any form of WICCA, DRUIDISM, or any other ancient or modern Pagan path. it is simply a fantasy world. period.

[kennyc]

That's close enough for Christian extremist work.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

Because as it stands I don't know what you're even addressing.

I'm addressing the fact that you seem to believe in witches-- and that they are "dangerous." I may be wrong in the characterization, but it seems from your post that you believe that "witches" are real in the sense that they are actually addressing a real supernatural being who really can assist them in their wishes if they perform the right rituals and mumble the right words-- but at a price, and not just see "witches" as simply flakes wasting their time and perfectly good herbs and spices. If I'm wrong in that interpretation, then I apologize. (If right, there isn't a facepalm large enough.)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Pre-Christian Roman law considered witchcraft real. It wasn't illegal to practice sorcery, but it was illegal to use sorcery to accomplish malicious goals.

For that matter, witchcraft is still practiced in Romania. Not witchcraft involving worship of Satan, however. This is the older folk variety, concerned with charms, potions and spells, to do things like bring you true love, keep you healthy, or help you make money. The practitioners are recognized professionals, and I recall seeing a proposal that would give them formal status with government licensing and taxes.

You can find that sort of thing in the US, though they may not call themselves "witches". There's a Gypsy fortune telling parlor a couple of blocks from me, and I encountered one in Brooklyn that advertised palm reading, fortune telling, crystalmancy, tea leave readings, tarot readings and kaballah. I rather doubted the last - I know some folks involved in Jewish mysticism, and the kaballah is a lifetime study by itself.
______
Dennis