For the few writers here that are not benefited by piracy and NEED DRM...

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by bjones6416

I can't believe I'm stepping into a DRM discussion, but...

I know a few of those Aunt Mabels who might try to share a book with DRM and not know WHY it doesn't work; just that it doesn't. Unfortunately they are the same ones who might then just google the title, end up on a torrent site, and download it illegally. Because "it must be okay if I can just click on it and get it." Just saying, clueless people are clueless. And that works in both directions.

Click on google link, work out which button to click on torrent site (take a few days out to get malware uninstalled by clicking on wrong thing), find a torrent client, install client, back to google, click on torrent link, find where it downloaded to, side load it to ereader.

These are, believe it or not, the average persons first forray into torrents. Admittedly after the first time and the client is installed it gets easier, but after the first time most Aunt Mabels don't try again.
We are also talking about self pubbed / small publisher books here not BPH.

Picking Marie as an example, for her new book typing
"Catch an Honest Thief" marie schneider
into google gets me on the first page - Smashwords, BearMountainBooks, Goodreads, Amazon, Kobo, Cozy-Mystery.com (Takes you to amazon after going to the page) & Shelfari.
Took me to page 7 to find something that looked like it might be a torrent site.

Also as Aunt Mabel already has the book, she would have no reason to google a book she had already bought - she knows how to get it already, she just don't know how to give it to someone else.
It's possible the may google something along the lines of "how do I lend an ebook" but that is unlikely to give them any usefull information short of "you can't" or "use the lendme feature on your reader"

[bjones6416]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Click on google link, work out which button to click on torrent site (take a few days out to get malware uninstalled by clicking on wrong thing), find a torrent client, install client, back to google, click on torrent link, find where it downloaded to, side load it to ereader.

These are, believe it or not, the average persons first forray into torrents. Admittedly after the first time and the client is installed it gets easier, but after the first time most Aunt Mabels don't try again.
We are also talking about self pubbed / small publisher books here not BPH.

Picking Marie as an example, for her new book typing
"Catch an Honest Thief" marie schneider
into google gets me on the first page - Smashwords, BearMountainBooks, Goodreads, Amazon, Kobo, Cozy-Mystery.com (Takes you to amazon after going to the page) & Shelfari.
Took me to page 7 to find something that looked like it might be a torrent site.

Also as Aunt Mabel already has the book, she would have no reason to google a book she had already bought - she knows how to get it already, she just don't know how to give it to someone else.
It's possible the may google something along the lines of "how do I lend an ebook" but that is unlikely to give them any usefull information short of "you can't" or "use the lendme feature on your reader"

Well, you've caught me out. Never actually downloaded from a torrent site. I assumed, apparently wrongly, that a series of "click here" would do the job, even if you didn't know what you were clicking. Sorry!

[BearMountainBooks]

Someone said earlier that most Aunt Mabel's rely on sons, daughters or nephews. Or, from what I've seen, next door neighbor. The thing is, not every son, daughter, etc is readily available and not all of them are going to download the client--not necessarily because they are hugely honest, but because they know if Aunt Mabel wanders into a virus later, they are on the hook to "fix my computer."

And none of the Aunt Mabels are going to go through that whole sequence on her own. I have called some of the ladies in my cozy group to walk them through things on the phone and once past the second instruction and we aren't done, panic sets in.

WHAT?? MY BOOK IS ON A TORRENT SITE???? Who knew!!

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

WHAT?? MY BOOK IS ON A TORRENT SITE???? Who knew!!

As far as I can tell, it's not on a torrent site; it's on one of those "sign up to download" sites that might have paid memberships. (They've always looked too sketchy for me to sign up for.)

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

As far as I can tell, it's not on a torrent site; it's on one of those "sign up to download" sites that might have paid memberships. (They've always looked too sketchy for me to sign up for.)

Well, I can tell you that they don't have a legit copy. And that is assuming they have a copy at all. I have only seen one person who posted on a forum who signed up for something like that--and they could not get their money back or books. Apparently some sites just collect "memberships" and don't actually have the books.

I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time chasing my own tail on issues like that. I try to watch that no one actually uploads a copy to sell on the main sites (that just happened to Ilona Andrews--someone took a freebie she had, uploaded it to Amazon and tried to sell it for 6 dollars.) But all of us are really at the mercy of fans to tell us if something like that is seen/happens. It takes more than just one set of eyeballs to find that sort of thing.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Well, I can tell you that they don't have a legit copy. And that is assuming they have a copy at all. I have only seen one person who posted on a forum who signed up for something like that--and they could not get their money back or books. Apparently some sites just collect "memberships" and don't actually have the books.

I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time chasing my own tail on issues like that. I try to watch that no one actually uploads a copy to sell on the main sites (that just happened to Ilona Andrews--someone took a freebie she had, uploaded it to Amazon and tried to sell it for 6 dollars.) But all of us are really at the mercy of fans to tell us if something like that is seen/happens. It takes more than just one set of eyeballs to find that sort of thing.

Do you make an attempt to have your books removed from torrents/etc?

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Do you make an attempt to have your books removed from torrents/etc?

I have not heard of any author having success at that, but I would make an attempt to have it removed from places like Scribd and sites that have a customer service who will respond. For the most part I curse torrent sites privately.

Do you know of anyone who has had actual success getting a book removed from a torrent site?

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by bjones6416

Well, you've caught me out. Never actually downloaded from a torrent site. I assumed, apparently wrongly, that a series of "click here" would do the job, even if you didn't know what you were clicking. Sorry!

One click will get you whatever the search brings up if you use any of the simple, easy to install torrent programs. They are free, install in moments and are straightforward to use. I have seen such software on seventy-plus retirees' computers, people who can barely grasp the basics of computer operation. A couple of weeks ago I saw an elderly woman in a retirement home who had such software on a Mac. She heard about it from other old people and installed it herself. It is called "Vuze" and is simple to use. Do you know what she illegally downloads? Knitting patterns. Prints them out and gives them to her friends.

These old retired people are just like everyone else - some have IT experience, some don't - but they help each other out. They are very social and they share. One old guy goes from house to house doing computer maintenance, installing such software and teaching others how to use it. He is very popular. Not with me, he screwed up my Father-in-Law's new computer. Took Windows 7 off it and installed XP-Pro. (Without all the necessary drivers.)

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by DarkScribe

One click will get you whatever the search brings up if you use any of the simple, easy to install torrent programs. They are free, install in moments and are straightforward to use. I have seen such software on seventy-plus retirees' computers, people who can barely grasp the basics of computer operation. A couple of weeks ago I saw an elderly woman in a retirement home who had such software on a Mac. She heard about it from other old people and installed it herself. It is called "Vuze" and is simple to use. Do you know what she illegally downloads? Knitting patterns. Prints them out and gives them to her friends.

These old retired people are just like everyone else - some have IT experience, some don't - but they help each other out. They are very social and they share. One old guy goes from house to house doing computer maintenance, installing such software and teaching others how to use it. He is very popular. Not with me, he screwed up my Father-in-Law's new computer. Took Windows 7 off it and installed XP-Pro. (Without all the necessary drivers.)

I agree. They are social AND THEY SHARE. It's part of their currency. And so why make it easy on them by not installing DRM? Yes, they can go to the torrent sites (those who know how.) But DRM isn't stopping those who "shop" there either. It's a conundrum.

And yes, I know I came off as "all old people are Aunt Mabels." That isn't what I meant--it's just some observations from a few book groups I'm on. I'm closer to Aunt Mabel than not and I'm quite certain I could download from torrent sites if I so choose. What I won't do as an Aunt Mabel is help other people install or do it.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I agree. They are social AND THEY SHARE. It's part of their currency. And so why make it easy on them by not installing DRM? Yes, they can go to the torrent sites (those who know how.) But DRM isn't stopping those who "shop" there either. It's a conundrum.

And yes, I know I came off as "all old people are Aunt Mabels." That isn't what I meant--it's just some observations from a few book groups I'm on. I'm closer to Aunt Mabel than not and I'm quite certain I could download from torrent sites if I so choose. What I won't do as an Aunt Mabel is help other people install or do it.

You see the final fallback argument many ofl these anti-DRM types use is something like "Don't make them mad. You can't stop them. "

Well, it is true I can't stop a thief with a gun, a knife or a brick from taking my money if he gets the chance, but I can sure make it as difficult as possible. And if he complains "Why don't you just give me the money and save me all this trouble?" I will laugh at him just like I do with the Anti-DRM types.

A thief is a thief.
A thug is a thug.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

The real problem here is we are arguing with out hard facts. "I think that most people do ZXY" is followed by "no I think most people do ABC"

With out hard facts, every opinion is equally valid. So I declare everyone is right!

Or wrong.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I agree. They are social AND THEY SHARE. It's part of their currency. And so why make it easy on them by not installing DRM? Yes, they can go to the torrent sites (those who know how.) But DRM isn't stopping those who "shop" there either. It's a conundrum.

In the short run, DRM probably results in a few more sales, as those who tried to share but couldn't exhort their friends to just buy the ebook, and a few of them do so. However, in the long run, it's crippling word-of-mouth recommendations. It's possible that downloadable sample chapters mitigate this.

Almost none of us discovered our favorite authors by buying a new book. Removing the "I liked this; you read it and see if you like it" aspects of book culture is a drastic change.

What would probably work best is something like Kindle/Nook's lender ability--if it weren't deliberately kept from working well. One time, for two weeks only, is ridiculous. There's no reason it shouldn't be "as often and as long as desired"--with DRM that keeps it to one registered user at a time.

There's problems with that, too, but I don't think those will be as bad, five years from now, as the split between "buy full price" and "get it free from some bootleg site." Removing the option to legitimately read for other than full price means driving away potential fans, who *will* find something else to read. Or at least, something else to *do*... other than a handful of top selling authors, people don't bother buying books outside their leisure budget.

And if the book they pass up is the first one they've heard of by a given author, they're not likely to read the author's other works, either. Authors who limit their fanbase to royalty-paying customers are never going to be at the top of the sales charts.

Maybe they'll make enough anyway. And maybe they're not interested in having a readerbase larger than their sales counts. But it's a very different approach to an authorial career, the idea that the only readers should be those who paid the author.

[Soldim]

Originally Posted by jabberwock_11

If I am looking for a reference manual or technical piece then I usually have to make due with a hard copy, but more and more often those creatures are available as ebooks. When they are available in electronic format they are RARELY protected by DRM.

I can fully agree with that. Professionally, we have access to many electronic technical manuals, reference works etc. through our academic library. These electronic works started to be available maybe three years ago in small quantities, currently most of what I need/use is available electronically. I have never encountered DRM on those beyond needing a VPN tunnel to our academic network.

A DRM scheme where I would need to install a program would very simply not work. Installing something on my main workstation to look through a reference manual would be a pain, but doable. However, mostly I need technical reference manuals while (trying to) operate a piece of equipment, generally using one of the computers driving that specific instrument. No way I will start installing programs to read DRM protected ebooks.

I've never even heard of people getting these kind of reference manuals from the darknet, it very simply doesn't make sense if one has access to a decent institutional library. I do sometimes keep local copies on my desktop computer at work or at home -- I know for the Springer books we use it is specifically indicated on every download page that this is allowed.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

In the short run, DRM probably results in a few more sales, as those who tried to share but couldn't exhort their friends to just buy the ebook, and a few of them do so. However, in the long run, it's crippling word-of-mouth recommendations. It's possible that downloadable sample chapters mitigate this.

Almost none of us discovered our favorite authors by buying a new book. Removing the "I liked this; you read it and see if you like it" aspects of book culture is a drastic change.

This is also my take on it, although I have actually bought the series based on the back of some of the publisher freebie/dirt cheap offers that caught my interest.

I'm hoping something like that very cheap txtr reader becomes reality (Essentially a dirt cheap e-ink reader that only holds a couple of books as bitmapped pages - all processing to get the book on the device is via an app on a smartphone), if something like these become popular then I can see them doing the rounds amongst friends instead of files, just hand them the reader with the book on it and they are unable to copy the book back to their computer, eventually you get the reader back (Theoretically at the moment you could send the book to multiple devices but I see no technical issues with having a check-in check-out facility in the app, a custom time limit would be usefull so you can lend it again after a certain time if the device gets trashed).

Instant lending, face-to-face only, with no chance of the book you lent out ending up on a torrent site, also no need to circumvent DRM. All we need is e-ink screens to drop in price enough as the actual device needs very little in the way of hardware other than the screen (you can get little digital keyring photo frames for a couple of quid, it's only the screen price stopping this idea).

[gmw]

Being social and sharing has always been an issue when selling books. Yes, people can now share their copy and read it at the same time, but exactly how much impact this has over the old serial form of sharing is really hard to tell. Most avid readers tend to have a fairly large TBR list, waiting for a copy was generally not much of a problem.

Generally I think that people sharing within their small group is usual and to be expected - and I mean this both ways. The writer should expect it to happen and the readers expect to be able to do it, but this is where DRM steps in and - in some instances - makes things awkward and annoys the reader. You may well say that that's as it should be, but remember that if you sell your ebook for a buck or two of profit you are still doing just as well when the same happened to authors selling paper books.

Large scale piracy - sharing (or selling on) to anyone/everyone around the 'net - is a different kettle of very smelly fish all together. Here it may be possible to argue that new/unknown authors could actually benefit from such distribution channels (at least they're being read/discovered). I find it less easy to argue that well known authors would receive the same benefit, I suspect there are only downsides for them. BUT I don't think that existing DRM methods make much of an impact on this form of piracy.