iPhone The Guardian UK: The iPhone is the new Internet Explorer 6, says mobile developer

[dmaul1114]

That's getting into a semantics debate about how to phrase the issue.

It's really as simple as this:

A lot of sites currently use Flash, and it's up to the individual on whether flash support is a big deal to them or not.

For me it is since so many video sites use flash, facebook games etc. To others it's moot as they don't frequent sites with flash.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Yoshi 1080

Sonist, please read this sentence carefully (ideally read it twice): Not supporting a standard is not the same as breaking a standard!

Yoshi, read this carefully: "some cannot see the forest for the trees."

Originally Posted by Yoshi 1080

... Regarding your weird argument about Flash being more than video: so is HTML5. So what exactly is your point?

Uhm, let's see, things that Flash does, and HTML5 doesn't:

embedded fonts
true cross platform support for audio and video (including cue, dynamic tracks, etc.)
video camera and microphone capture
Local filesystem read/write
xml, etc. sockets
native app and processes
peer to peer
multi-player gaming
Text Layout Framework
etc..

Look, I am not bashing HTML5. HTML5 is a good thing. I am excited about it, and can't wait for it to be adopted.

But Flash is not standing still. Most likely the two will coexist for a long, long time.

But my point is, Flash is ubiquitous on the web. Today. And tomorrow.

Not supporting it on the iPad is a major mistake, IMO. It's a decision driven by the same reasons Apple TV cannot access Netflix or Hulu, and it will hurt an otherwise very good product.

[jibril]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Flash works on virtually every computer in the world and content providers and developers know this.

Back when I had a Apple Notebook (PPC, not intel, one of the last) - Flash ran extremely slowly on it even though the Notebook was relatively new at the time.

Have a Windows computer right now for work, but heard from some that even on the intel macs, that flash runs slowly. Is this true?

It wasn't too bad Ubuntu when I ran it, but I never checked out the games, like on rocksolidarcade.

Either way, the web shouldn't be built no proprietary standards controlled by one company, imo. Always reliant on company X to bring out a good version on your platform.

I wonder how gnash is coming along...

[Yoshi 1080]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Yoshi, read this carefully: "some cannot see the forest for the trees."

I'm giving up. You refuse to understand that Mobile Safari is nothing like IE6. This thread is about the arguments made in the article linked to in the first post, nothing else. The importance (or lack thereof) of Flash is a completely different matter, discussed like a thousand times before.

embedded fonts

No problem using CSS

true cross platform support for audio and video (including cue, dynamic tracks, etc.)

What's wrong with HTML5's video and audio tags and HTTP streaming?

video camera and microphone capture

We'll see.

Local filesystem read/write

My filesystem is nobody's business. Let alone that this is platform-specific.

xml, etc. sockets

Don't know what you mean, XHTML is XML. Sure, Microsoft is still jamming support for it, but still, the technology is here.

native app and processes

Flash crashes, all apps crash. Don't understand your point. Besides, some browsers start a new process for each tab (Chrome, maybe Safari?), ensuring stability for every opened webapp.

peer to peer

Νot sure if this is possible via AJAX.

Text Layout Framework

?

Look, I am not bashing HTML5. HTML5 is a good thing. I am excited about it, and can't wait for it to be adopted.

HTML5 can replace most of Flash's features, especially those that are actually used by developers. Enough to let go of this proprietary plugin IMO.

Not supporting it on the iPad is a major mistake, IMO. It's a decision driven by the same reasons Apple TV cannot access Netflix or Hulu, and it will hurt an otherwise very good product.

Hulu cannot be accessed from the PS3's browser either. Not because of a missing plugin but because Hulu itself blocks access from the PS3's browser. So I don't know if Hulu on the Apple TV would be possible anyway (in terms of politics, obviously). Regarding Netflix, at least in the console market Microsoft has en exclusive deal with them. But anyway, they are competing stores, why would Apple include Netflix on Apple TV in the first place? This is like Dell offering Sony products in its online store, it wouldn't make sense.

Eventually, fighting Flash really is all about access to the web and performance. Accessing Flash content means using (renting in a way) Adobe's rendering engine (i.e. Flash Player) and that can't be acceptable. The web was once invented as a free and open network to share information, we must not let ourselves become dependent on a single commercially oriented company. Also, Flash content has a huge impact on performance and is less barrier-free than pure HTML (regarding display on lower-resolution mobile devices for example).

The iPad is a guidepost into the future of mobile computing, it's only consequent to waive Flash.

[jibril]

Originally Posted by Yoshi 1080

Eventually, fighting Flash really is all about access to the web and performance. Accessing Flash content means using (renting in a way) Adobe's rendering engine (i.e. Flash Player) and that can't be acceptable. The web was once invented as a free and open network to share information, we must not let ourselves become dependent on a single commercially oriented company. Also, Flash content has a huge impact on performance and is less barrier-free than pure HTML (regarding display on lower-resolution mobile devices for example).

I agree with the part underlined and highlighted. Here is an example of a website that totally didn't need flash, but is wholly dependent on it (it doesn't show up at all without plug-in):
http://minado.com/

It's just a restaurant website with hours, locations, prices, and frequent_diner form -- and yet they made themselves totally inaccessible to a host of browsers/platforms -- mindbobbling.

I know the owners, they think because it shows up on their windows webbrowser, it will show up on every webbrowser - so they don't complain to their developer.

The future can't rest on propietary flash.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by jibril

...
The future can't rest on propietary flash.

Whatever..., "and the meek shall inherit the Earth...."

This is like a religion. Do you guys live in reality, or in some sort of utopian future?

Flash is here now. HTML5 is a still changing draft.

Without Flash, a large portion of the current web will not be accessible on the iPad.

This is all that counts for the vast majority of current consumers who expect to browse the web, and don't care about Flash and HTML5.

[dmaul1114]

Agreed Sonist. I don't care what the future holds. I'm buying a gadget to use right now in the present. And lack of Flash support is a big blow to me since a lot of my web use is flash dependent.

If 5-10 years from now that's not the case and HTML5 or something else has taken it's place, then I'll stop caring. I have no loyalty to companies like Adobe or Apple. I'm not a supporter of Flash. I just want the websites I use regularly to display properly in the here and now on any gadget I buy for web surfing.

[jibril]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Whatever..., "and the meek shall inherit the Earth...."

This is like a religion. Do you guys live in reality, or in some sort of utopian future?

Flash is here now. HTML5 is a still changing draft.

Without Flash, a large portion of the current web will not be accessible on the iPad.

This is all that counts for the vast majority of current consumers who expect to browse the web, and don't care about Flash and HTML5.

Eh, there were like 3 instances the past year I wish I had flash, but it isn't that big of a deal to me. I admit I don't watch much video.

Since I've been on Linux for years, maybe I've lived without some things too much to care unless it's really important - imo flash is restricted to games and video.

We all have our priorities, but I don't like adobe enough to rely on them too much - looking beyond the here and now.

[kjk]

Dare Obasanjo responded to the original rant post:
http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/20...tatistics.aspx

Although these statistics seem persuasive they are actually totally useless when it comes to arguing the point of which browsers mobile developers should target. Ownership of a mobile phone doesn’t directly equate to using it for browsing the web. The important metric is the smartphone OS breakdown among people who actually use the mobile web on their phones.

You can get these stats easily from AdMob's mobile metrics report which is based on measuring ad impressions across various mobile sites across various smartphone OSes. These metrics paint a very different picture from the sales data as shown below

According to these stats, the iPhone OS is actually the major source of traffic for the mobile web in most continents except for Africa and Asia. What this tells you is that developers aren’t being stupid when they try to ensure their sites work well on the iPhone.

That said, I agree that it is a bad idea for developers to specifically target features of a particular browser versus using web standards. However that is different from making sure your site works well in the most popular platform used for browsing mobile websites in your particular market.

[Yoshi 1080]

That said, I agree that it is a bad idea for developers to specifically target features of a particular browser versus using web standards. However that is different from making sure your site works well in the most popular platform used for browsing mobile websites in your particular market.

That's exactly my point.