World Wide Education Scores - or why China wins

[kennyc]

Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators
By SAM DILLON
Published: December 7, 2010

With China’s debut in international standardized testing, students in Shanghai have surprised experts by outscoring their counterparts in dozens of other countries, in reading as well as in math and science, according to the results of a respected exam.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/ed...n.html?_r=1&hp

The list:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...?ref=education

[obs20]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators
By SAM DILLON
Published: December 7, 2010

With China’s debut in international standardized testing, students in Shanghai have surprised experts by outscoring their counterparts in dozens of other countries, in reading as well as in math and science, according to the results of a respected exam.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/ed...n.html?_r=1&hp

The list:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...?ref=education

The article does state that the test was given in a selective district in Shanghai and doesn't reflect the country as a whole.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by obs20

The article does state that the test was given in a selective district in Shanghai and doesn't reflect the country as a whole.

And if you dig down, got to the actual publication referenced, there is a ton of data...

I thought the listing figure though was telling...not just the fact that Shanghai was on/near the top, but the position of the U.S. in the rankings - particularly with regard to math.

[ProfCrash]

nevermind, I don't want to get into this debate.

[rhadin]

Makes me wonder if teachers have a tenure system in all those other countries. Randi Weingarten does point out that most are unionized, but unionization doesn't necessarily equal tenure system where lousy teachers can never be removed.

[obs20]

Originally Posted by kennyc

And if you dig down, got to the actual publication referenced, there is a ton of data...

I thought the listing figure though was telling...not just the fact that Shanghai was on/near the top, but the position of the U.S. in the rankings - particularly with regard to math.

All that is true but it doesn't explain what the scale means or if the differences are statistically significant. It does show that Singapore and Shanghai are outliers and that is all we can draw from the table.

In the US we test only public school students. Private schools are not required to test. Other countries choose to test who they like. It's not a direct comparison.

We do have cause for concern but our situation isn't as desperate as some would have you believe.

If you get a chance read: The War Against America's Public Schools: Privatizing Schools, Commercializing Education by Gerald R Bracey

http://www.amazon.com/Against-Americ...1755499&sr=8-5

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by obs20

All that is true but it doesn't explain what the scale means or if the differences are statistically significant. It does show that Singapore and Shanghai are outliers and that is all we can draw from the table.

In the US we test only public school students. Private schools are not required to test. Other countries choose to test who they like. It's not a direct comparison.

We do have cause for concern but our situation isn't as desperate as some would have you believe.

If you get a chance read: The War Against America's Public Schools: Privatizing Schools, Commercializing Education by Gerald R Bracey

http://www.amazon.com/Against-Americ...1755499&sr=8-5

Bingo.

The US education system works very differently then the rest of the worlds. Students don't take entrance exams to get into high school. So when you randomly pick from a US high school you are going to get kids in AP classes and kids in remedial classes or even kids who are going to drop out the following year. When you pick students from a high school in Japan or China or even some European countries you are picking a student who had high enough scores to be allowed to attend that school.

The high school I graduated from was one where the majority of the students were Asian. A large percentage of those students were parachute students. Their parents bought or rented property in the town so that their high school age students could go to school in the US. These were the kids who did not score high enough on the placement exams to get into the elite high schools in Taiwan and Japan and whose parents did not want them going into a vocational track for high school.

Let's compare the scores of US students who take AP classes and exams to the hand pick sampling of the other countries and see what the results are. I have a feeling that the US would do a great deal better if we compared our elite students with the worlds elite students.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by obs20

All that is true but it doesn't explain what the scale means or if the differences are statistically significant. It does show that Singapore and Shanghai are outliers and that is all we can draw from the table.

In the US we test only public school students. Private schools are not required to test. Other countries choose to test who they like. It's not a direct comparison.
..

I don't know it that is true or not or what is reflected in the listings as I've not read the entire report. It may be the the Elite Chinese Students are being compared to ghetto kids from the U.S. but I really doubt a respectable (assuming they are) research group would do that sort of thing. I also suspect that many Chinese children do not even attend school.

The thing I do believe is that there is a crisis in education in the U.S.A. based on the results I keep seeing in education, research, and industry.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by obs20

In the US we test only public school students. Private schools are not required to test. Other countries choose to test who they like. It's not a direct comparison.

We do have cause for concern but our situation isn't as desperate as some would have you believe.

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

The US education system works very differently then the rest of the worlds. Students don't take entrance exams to get into high school. So when you randomly pick from a US high school you are going to get kids in AP classes and kids in remedial classes or even kids who are going to drop out the following year.

In my school district the students with "special needs" are tested and their scores are included with the general student population. This may work comparing one in-state district to another but I am not sure how it can compare to other states and countries.

However, I am impressed when I read of the education standards and results of other lands. Recently, I saw a brief report from Finland and they seem to be very progressive and their students benefit greatly.

[beppe]

Without taking away nothing of the previous contributions to the discussion, I would kindly advice to read the original report that generated the piece of news that generated this thread. The Pisa 2009 report is not available for free to everyone of course, but an executive summary is indeed available to all. That is the link i am posting.

There are comments and explanations that help to place the results in useful perspectives.

[kennyc]

Thanks for that Beppe. There were links to the study in the article as well.

[dsvick]

I blame the parents!! I don't know this for a fact or have any evidence to back it up but I'd be willing to bet that parents from the places where the scores were highest were a lot more involved and put forth more effort to ensure their child's success.

I know parents here who let there kids stay up as late as they want to every night of the week, or wake their kids up 10 minutes before they walk out the door to go to school. There is no enforcement of homework, no set aside study time, the TV is a babysitter, parent teacher conferences are an inconvenience, and on and on.

It's disgusting, I hate it!!

[ProfCrash]

True. You could know people who send their kids to summer prep camps in order to take the entrance exams for high schools in Japan and South Korea. Nothings says love like 8 hours a day of enforced study during the summer.

The pressure placed on the top students in some countries is absolutely insane. Their kids might score off the charts on exams but it does not sound like a great way to spend your youth.

There is a balance that has to be achieved.

[beppe]

In France, things are decided at a very early age. If one wants to enter in a prestigious school (Grand Ecole), that will guarantee a nice professional career and higher salaries, she/ he has to start working toward that goal before 14. Admission is on a national basis.
In South Korea, admission to University is *the* chance. Sometimes it is the only chance for a whole village, for their bright one to be admitted and to help all toward a better life. The day of the exam for admission to University, Korea stops, such is the importance of the event.
Since the first PISA reports, I am really surprised by the Fins. Having seen piles of teenagers in the parks of Helsinki stoned cold by their watery beers.

[obs20]

In the USA the current trend is towards school choice and vouchers but this finding from the report should give us pause.

After accounting for the socio-economic and demographic profiles of students and schools, students in OECD countries
who attend private schools show performance that is similar to that of students enrolled in public schools.

On average, socio-economically disadvantaged parents are over 13 percentage points more likely than socioeconomically
advantaged parents to report that they consider “low expenses” and “financial aid” as very important
determinants in choosing a school. If children from socio-economically disadvantaged backgrounds cannot attend
high-performing schools because of financial constraints, then school systems that offer parents more choice of
schools for their children will necessarily be less effective in improving the performance of all students.