"Consumers Don't Mind...Ads." Really?

[Algiedi]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

You think Kindles are "so overpriced"? Seriously?

Although, I guess it's all relative... I paid $359 for my Kindle.

BOb

It's all relative indeed, I suppose it depends on how much money you got to spend on "frivolous" items (as opposed to rent, food, etc.)

The success of the KSO makes me think that a few bucks' difference is significant enough for a large amount of people to want to save it, in exchange for a small annoyance.

If a Kindle was cheap by any standard then people would go for the version without ads. I can understand that people don't mind them so much (they seem rather inobtrusive), but let's no go so far as to argue that people actually prefer the KSO over an ad-free version.

[anamardoll]

Well, and the other thing is that the KSO kind of underscores what Elfwreck is saying about price.

The KSO is, what, $25 off? For a lifetime of ads? (The lifetime of the device, I mean.) And these ads are "available" all the time, regardless of which books you read and whether or not the books are read more than once?

I can't imagine that advertisers would ever pay enough in ads to reduce the cost of a single book even a whole dollar. There's a VERY low chance they'll get that dollar back for each and every reader - and there's a very good chance that most of those readers will only see that ad once, if at all (how many of us buy books that we haven't yet opened or read? I have hundreds I haven't read! I can't be unique in that regard.)

The only way I see an ad model working is on a device. And I'd never be comfortable being locked in to that. Sure, the KSO ads *right now* are Amazon gift cards and Audible and whatnot, but there's no guarantee that those ads are going to stay innocuous. I doubt the KSO is going to start streaming porn to anyone's device, but you get my point - there's some ads that I don't want on my screensaver, particularly if they start doing "smart" book recommendations.

(I've seen this happen on GoodReads before they worked the bugs out of the system - add one book by "anonymous" and suddenly you have 5,000 erotica recommends 'by the same author'. )

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by odiakkoh

The KSO appeals to me because of the special offers. If the KSO and the K3 wifi were the same price, i would still get the KSO. It being $25 cheaper is a cherry on top for me.

My thoughts too

[Algiedi]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

there's no guarantee that those ads are going to stay innocuous. I doubt the KSO is going to start streaming porn to anyone's device, but you get my point

Now there's an idea. People would definitely pay a fortune for that.

Originally Posted by odiakkoh

The KSO appeals to me because of the special offers. If the KSO and the K3 wifi were the same price, i would still get the KSO. It being $25 cheaper is a cherry on top for me.

I had missed that post.
I stand corrected.
Baffled, but corrected.

You can't get those special offers any other way?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

(Shrug). So they'll tailor ads to different devices. Sorry, but I don't see this as the overwhelming technical obstacle you make this out to be.

Then you must not know much about ebook devices. The technical obstacles are *huge*; that's why there aren't ad-supported ebooks at the moment. Every method designed for making an ebook force ads on the reader, also restricts the readership to a very narrow fraction of the market.

I'm sorry, but I did discuss price. More than once. I mentioned the $5 spread between the ad-supported and premium versions of games. I mentioned that Amazon was able to discount $25 between the no ads Kindle and the KSO.

You mentioned how freemium products work; you didn't mention why anyone should think book publishers -- who screamed bloody murder at the idea of $10 ebooks that they received full payments for -- would accept it.

Games are generally played many, many times; the ads are therefore viewed many times. Books are often read exactly once. And there's a huge difference between "ad-supported device" and "ad-supported product using that device."

Now how much would it be worth to advertisers if an ebook displayed a splash ad every time it opened?

In what software? My Sony & Astak won't support that. What file formats? Non-kindle Mobi readers on computers won't support it either.

The Kindle will support ads-as-screensavers; the current software won't support an ad that splashes on a particular ebook opening. And if new software were written (who's paying for that programming work?), how long would the "splash" last--if it's long enough to read a full page of ad text, the ad-stripping software will be very, very popular. Nobody wants a 30-second delay every time they open their ebook.

If it only opens at the beginning of the book, then it only gets viewed once.

I don't know the answer but based on the success of the KSO, it may be worth quite a bit- maybe not $25, but maybe more than $5.

That's like saying, "based on the successful sales of backpacks with our logo, we're going to subsidize the cost of textbooks."

The Kindle has a broad audience. It sells millions. It gets used potentially daily. Any particular ebook sells thousands, gets used a few times for maybe a week, and then may never be looked at again. Especially if it has a nuisance factor attached.

Let's say its worth $5. Amazon's typical price for an ebook that's a MMPB is $7.99. Supposed it offered $2.99 for the ad-supported version, with an option to upgrade to the ad-free version for $5 more later? I'm betting SOMEBODY would take that deal, given the love of folks on the Internet for "deals" and "freebies".

Of course somebody would take that deal. The question is, who'd be paying the other $5 x however many people wanted that deal?

I'm not the only one who thinks so, which is why I pointed you to that beta site. Now its a beta , which implies "new" , "unproven" and indeed "under construction". We won't know for a couple of months what's being offered, and we may not know for some time after whether it will work.

That's not beta. That's alpha. That's design notes. The site says *nothing* about what it's going to offer, except that it involves cloud-based ebooks.

Beta is a working model that still has bugs, not an advertisement for a product that doesn't exist yet.

It shows, though , that there are people who think a freemium model can work for ebooks and who are willing to put their money where their mouth is. If they succeed even a little, I think we'll see Amazon or B&N roll out their efforts.

It says that software designers think it can work; it doesn't say that publishers are willing to support that model.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Algiedi

Now there's an idea. People would definitely pay a fortune for that.



I had missed that post.
I stand corrected.
Baffled, but corrected.

You can't get those special offers any other way?

Nope. The Special Offers are on the KSO only.

There are people who have the K3 3G and K3 WiFi who are asking how they can opt in to the ads so that they can get the various offers. So people who paid more for Kindles before the KSO was sold are saying that they are willing to add the Ads and Special Offers because they want the savings that the offers provide.

I have no idea how many people would opt in to the ads option but I have seen topics asking about it on three boards.

[anamardoll]

+1, Elfwreck.

I think there's a disconnect here, maybe based on a technical divide. I see a HUGE difference between developers paying to put an ad on a reading device (which is, as you say, used many times a week regardless of how fast the reader reads), and paying to put ads on a specific book (which is only opened a few times, if at all).

And I also agree that the technology just isn't there yet.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Let's say its worth $5. Amazon's typical price for an ebook that's a MMPB is $7.99. Supposed it offered $2.99 for the ad-supported version, with an option to upgrade to the ad-free version for $5 more later? I'm betting SOMEBODY would take that deal, given the love of folks on the Internet for "deals" and "freebies".

A lot of people might *take* that deal. I can't figure out who would *offer* it.

A superbowl ad cost $3 million for 30 seconds in 2011. The game was watched by 110 million viewers. That works out to less than 3 cents per viewer. And for your 3 cents, you are interrupting the game for 30 seconds.

Your suggestion has advertisers paying $5 per reader. That's a lot more! And of course you can have more than one advertisement to split up the cost - but you'll also get less of the reader's attention that way. (and I doubt in any circumstance will you get anything like the 30 uninterrupted seconds you get with a super bowl ad.

[stonetools]

Then you must not know much about ebook devices. The technical obstacles are *huge*; that's why there aren't ad-supported ebooks at the moment. Every method designed for making an ebook force ads on the reader, also restricts the readership to a very narrow fraction of the market.

Of course, people thought ad-supported ereading devices were technically infeasible too-until Amazon came out with the KSO.
History is full of things that were thought technically infeasible until someone did it.

You mentioned how freemium products work; you didn't mention why anyone should think book publishers -- who screamed bloody murder at the idea of $10 ebooks that they received full payments for -- would accept it.

Games are generally played many, many times; the ads are therefore viewed many times. Books are often read exactly once. And there's a huge difference between "ad-supported device" and "ad-supported product using that device."

Newspapers are usually read only once.
Magazines are usually read only once.
Comics are usually read only once .
TV shows are usually watched only once.
Movies are usually watched only once

Types of books often read more than once .

*Self-help books
*Manuals
*reference books
*Inspirational books
* Textbooks

Publishers in the past have been quite willing to have their products subsidized by advertising. It is only the question of the right model.

In what software? My Sony & Astak won't support that. What file formats? Non-kindle Mobi readers on computers won't support it either.

The Kindle will support ads-as-screensavers; the current software won't support an ad that splashes on a particular ebook opening. And if new software were written (who's paying for that programming work?), how long would the "splash" last--if it's long enough to read a full page of ad text, the ad-stripping software will be very, very popular. Nobody wants a 30-second delay every time they open their ebook.

If it only opens at the beginning of the book, then it only gets viewed once.

If your argument is that it is technologically impossible to insert ads into ebooks, I very much doubt that. If your argument is that no one would be willing to pay to create that capability , well, I doubt that even more.

People for generations have watched TV with 30 second or longer breaks every few minutes
*Have listened to radio with 30 second ads several times an hour
*Have read newspapers, magazines and comics broken up by ads
*Have browsed websites, played games, and used software with banner ads blinking at them

My conclusion is that people will put up with quite a bit for discount or free. Maybe you wouldn't, but others would.

Of course somebody would take that deal. The question is, who'd be paying the other $5 x however many people wanted that deal?

I dunno. Maybe the same folks who advertise in the banner ads in my freemium games or who pay for all those Web ads that appear beside my search results, etc. There's no shortage of ad money out there.

It says that software designers think it can work; it doesn't say that publishers are willing to support that model.

Those software designers were paid by investors , who presumably heard and rejected your argument that freemium for ebooks is impossible. Now you may be right, but there are people who are willing to bet pots of money that you are wrong. In a few months we'll find out.

[anamardoll]

Of course, people thought ad-supported ereading devices were technically infeasible too-until Amazon came out with the KSO.

I can't imagine who would think that. It's easy to push a screensaver over the WiFi and tell the device to display the screensaver. It's quite a bit different to embed an ad in the existing ebook formats out there and ensure that the ad is legible across all screen sizes, all devices, and all ebook formats.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Newspapers are usually read only once.
Magazines are usually read only once.
Comics are usually read only once .

Newspapers, magazines & comics are often handed around a group of readers. They work to push brand awareness even for non-customers; ebooks don't have that--nobody will see it on the kitchen table, sitting open to the ads. They won't be donated to a waiting room for other readers after the first, either. Nobody will browse through it at the supermarket and see the ads in passing.

Ads in ebooks are designed to be seen by exactly *one* person. Ads in magazines, comics, and newspapers are designed to be seen by more than the buyer.

TV shows are usually watched only once.

TV shows are watched by millions of people; a book is read by thousands. A book that could guarantee 10 million sales would indeed be a popular choice for advertisers. However, while there are hundreds of TV shows every year that get 10m viewers, there aren't a dozen books that can count on that.

Movies are usually watched only once

In the theatres, ads aren't embedded in the middle of them, and ads at the beginning & end are mostly limited to "more of this type of entertainment coming soon." (Also. Do those ads make the movies cheaper? Are there ad-supported and not-ad-supported movies? If not, that's an entirely different advertising model.) For the ones piped through cable & tv services--they're just nonserialized TV shows.

Types of books often read more than once .

*Self-help books
*Manuals
*reference books
*Inspirational books
* Textbooks

Do you have any indication that these sell well as ebooks? Most of those are exactly what ebook software fails to support.

Publishers in the past have been quite willing to have their products subsidized by advertising. It is only the question of the right model.

No, it's a case of "someone else pays the rest of the desired list price."

If your argument is that it is technologically impossible to insert ads into ebooks, I very much doubt that.

My argument is that it's technologically impossible to insert *useful* ads into either of the two dominant ebook forms at the moment, .mobi and .epub, and that ads in other formats (PDF) will cut down on purchases because the restrictions necessary for the ads will interfere with usage preferences.

If I bought DRM, I might buy a $5 version of a bestseller with ads; once I discovered it was unreadable on my device of choice, I wouldn't buy a second one.

If your argument is that no one would be willing to pay to create that capability , well, I doubt that even more.

I don't think nobody would, but I do question who--Amazon's not going to hand out their software specs to anyone for the asking, and they've got no motivation for developing a way for individual publishers to insert ads in individual ebooks. Repeat for all other device manufacturers.

People for generations have watched TV with 30 second or longer breaks every few minutes
*Have listened to radio with 30 second ads several times an hour
*Have read newspapers, magazines and comics broken up by ads

But not novels. They do not, traditionally, read novels in 700-word segments broken by ads. You seem to be assuming a major change in reading habits will be easy to encourage.

*Have browsed websites, played games, and used software with banner ads blinking at them

Resulting in widespread adblock software, and at one point, the dotcom crash, as companies figured out that putting their ads everywhere doesn't actually mean people will buy their products.

I dunno. Maybe the same folks who advertise in the banner ads in my freemium games or who pay for all those Web ads that appear beside my search results, etc. There's no shortage of ad money out there.

Banner ads & text ads cost pennies per hundreds of viewers. You're talking dollars per viewer.

Ads on ebook *sites*: absolutely. Lots of people see those. Ads inside an ebook: why? So one person will see it (if they don't have software that skips ads), and might be interested?

Those software designers were paid by investors, who presumably heard and rejected your argument that freemium for ebooks is impossible. Now you may be right, but there are people who are willing to bet pots of money that you are wrong. In a few months we'll find out.

I note they're not listing any publishers who're on board with their plan.

A lot of people are delusional about how people read, and how they want to deal with ebooks, and what the industry will allow. Plenty of businesses have gone broke guessing the wrong direction. I see nothing that indicates this one has any better understanding of the industry.

If they're successful in a few months, you can bring them up as a counter-argument; right now, they're one more form of vaporware that thinks ads will support them.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by stonetools

People for generations have watched TV with 30 second or longer breaks every few minutes

Hello recorder which allows me to fast forward the commercials. And torrents and usenets with stripped copies of recorded shows.

Originally Posted by stonetools

*Have listened to radio with 30 second ads several times an hour

Never listen to the radio, I prefer my own MP3 player. Hmm, and those things are rather popular...

Originally Posted by stonetools

*Have read newspapers, magazines and comics broken up by ads

I wouldn't compare reading a newspaper, magazine and comic to reading a book. Besides, in a newspaper, the pieces themselves are generally not cut up with advertisements. I've never seen a comic book with ads in between the story. Only comic magazines do have those. And I never get as immersed into a comic, newspaper or magazine as I get when reading a book...

Originally Posted by stonetools

*Have browsed websites, played games, and used software with banner ads blinking at them

As Elfwreck already mentioned, blocking tools are almost as old as banner ads. And I've never had games or software I bought with ads...

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by Algiedi

I can understand that people don't mind them so much (they seem rather inobtrusive), but let's no go so far as to argue that people actually prefer the KSO over an ad-free version.

I prefer the KSO over the K3. Why? Because I rather like the idea of Amazon giving me a free Kindle plus their ongoing campaign of giving me free money every now and then.

Free is good

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Nope. The Special Offers are on the KSO only.

Which is, in itself, weird. The offers make Amazon money, they aren't sold at a loss. Even those $10 for $20 credits maintains brand loyalty and ensures that you're buying from them. I don't really understand why you can't opt in to them via a web address or something - they can't think that existing Kindle owners are going to go buy a KSO just for the ads.

Heck, my Nook has ads. Just noticed that last night because of this conversation. Go into the "Shop" screen and *poof* GET A FREE SLICE OF CHEESECAKE OR WHATEVER FROM THE B&N CAFE. First thought: Huh. B&N had ads before Amazon had ads. Second thought: Why doesn't this bother me like the KSO would? Oh yeah, I shop from my computer and NEVER use the Nook Shop screen. It's not a bloody screensaver. *crisis averted*

(I actually made my own screen saver that cycles through reading quotes. I'm fond of it. http://www.nook-look.com/nookfiles/view/4540 )

I don't remember where I was going with this ramble.

[screwballl]

This type of system needs the different options:

$114 ad supported basic model
$130 ad-free basic model
$150+ ad-free premium model

The fallacy that "people do not mind advertisements" is massively false. It is annoying me to no end now to go watch a 60 second short video online and have to wait through 90 seconds of an ad before I can see it, or have half the video blocked out by an ad.

It is at the point where I only visit video sites with no ads, or my AdBlocker extension prevents the video ad from even being displayed. Bye bye youtube and most the other video sites out there.