SciFi history?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by emellaich

I've been reading a few free fiction (not science fiction) books from Amazon lately. The ones where the author has a six book series and gives the first one away as a promotion. Anyway, it's been jarring to see these 'modern' books that have no concept of a cell phone. Our character would get stuck in a broken down car and have to hike back for help, or would go searching for a pay phone to check in, etcetera.

<chuckle> Usually, the concern is that fact will overtake fiction, and the SF elements in the book will become dated because we've advanced enough to know better. Here, the problem is advancing technology producing things the SF writers never thought of. It's hard to remember that there was a time when the cell phone was not ubiquitous.

Another jarring note recently occurred when re-reading a favorite Zelazny. The main character, a judo/fitness buff would light up a cigarette every few pages as he thought about something or another. Cigarette smoking is something I've run across several times in my 'older' books. It's just a bit jarring because it never (?) shows up in current books.

It probably shows up, but it's much less popular. Back when Roger was writing, especially in his earlier days, smoking was more prevalent. (Roger smoked a pipe.) The TV series "Mad Men" is set in advertising in the '60s. The usual question is "Did everybody really smoke like chimneys and drink like fish like the do in the series?", and the answer from ad men who'd been in the business back then was "Yes. We did."

These days, smoking is in disfavor, and an increasing number of places are banning it, and imposing confiscatory taxes to try to stem it. (NYC is one such: city and state taxes and surcharges bring the price of a standard pack to about $11. Amusingly, you can buy back of small cigars, the same size as cigarettes, for $2.50. They aren't technically cigarettes, and slip through the loophole.)

Finally, on the subject of SF, SciFi, Science Fiction (Hard, soft and space opera), and, dare I say it: Fantasy. I do recognize most of these distinctions, and if you and I sat down and discussed it we could probably even agree to common definitions. I'd even let you convince me of your definition. Now try to fit a list of books into those defined categories. The problem that I found is that even with a common definition people will disagree which category a particular book fits into. In many cases, the book will fit into multiple categories. For example, some people I know would put the Honor Harrington series into fantasy because she is an empath.

Oh, I agree that definitions are porous, and you can find plenty of edge cases. To give a few offhand:

Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern
Pern is a lost colony, the inhabitants got there by starship, and the dragons are products of genetic engineering on the indigenous fire lizards. But people coming in in the middle see a feudal society, medieval level of technology, and fire breathing dragons and say "Aha! Fantasy!"

Randall Garret's Lord Darcy stories
Darcy is Chief Criminal Investigator for the Duke of Rouen, in an alternate history in which Richard the Lion Hearted settled down after being wounded in the Crusades and became a very good king indeed, founding a Plantagenet dynasty that still rules. Magic was developed instead of science, and theoretical thaumaturgists use sophisticated mathematics to work out the structure of spells that will be cast by working sorcerers. Darcy's partner, Master Forensic Sorcerer Sean O'Lochlain, uses magic to uncover clues Darcy uses to solve crimes. It's all worked up in best hard SF style, and was first published by John W. Campbell in Analog Magazine.

Melissa Scott's Silence Leigh novels
Silence is a sorceress who travels the stars with her two husbands in a ship powered by mystical forces. In Silence's society, alchemy is the dominant paradigm. Science also exists, and can be used, but the paradigms are antithetical: if you use one, you can't use the other.

Patricia Kennealy's Celts in Space series
In Kennealy's universe, St. Brendan the Navigator is St. Brendan the Astrogator, who led the Tautha De Danaan off Earth millenia ago, and founded a star nation based on the planet Keltia that is still locked in battle with its ancient enemies the Fomorians. Science and magic exist in Kennealy's universe, and computer controlled starships deliver naked, blue painted Fian warriors to the battlefields where they will wield broadswords against their opponents while mages cast spells in support.

But I'd love to know what definitions of SF and fantasy the folks you know use if they can call the Honor Harrington series fantasy. Would they also toss James H. Schmitz's "Federation of the Hub" stories into the fantasy pot, since many of them feature a heroine who is a powerful telepath, and psi powers are an accepted part of her society?
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by sabredog

I would'nt

Honor Harrington is not an empath, her Treecat Nimitz is and she shares through her bond with him, that ability.

Well, that is at least how I recall the character. Been a while since I read an honor Harrington book.

In the most recent, we discover some of Nimitz's ability has rubbed off on her, and she can do it without him present.
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Dennis

[sabredog]

There you go

I would never consider Honor Harrington books fantasy though. That series sits firmly in the Science Fiction - Military genre for me.

Psionics has long been an accepted part of Science Fiction.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by sabredog

There you go

She finds herself in the role of diplomat. Knowing when someone is lying is an extremely useful skill...

I would never consider Honor Harrington books fantasy though. That series sits firmly in the Science Fiction - Military genre for me.

Psionics has long been an accepted part of Science Fiction.

I concur on both counts. But I do wonder what definitions emellaich's friends use for SF and fantasy that they would put the Harrington novels in the latter category.
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Dennis

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I concur on both counts. But I do wonder what definitions emellaich's friends use for SF and fantasy that they would put the Harrington novels in the latter category.
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Dennis

You and me both.

Unless Nimitz is a dragon in disguise

I use a Science Fantasy genre tag within Calibre for such books like the Pellucidar, Barsoom and Venus series by Edgar Rice Burroughs.

He tended to be the master of mixing fantasy elements with science/technology elements.

Another more recent example of that genre would be the Hells Gate series by David Weber and Linda Evans.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by sabredog

You and me both.

Unless Nimitz is a dragon in disguise

For some reason, I thought of the small dragon in Mu-Lan. "I'm a dragon, not a lizard! I don't do the tongue thing!"

But ask Nimitz, and he'd probably say "Why should I want to breath fire? If I want something burnt, I ask my two-legs to do it. Same thing if I want to fly. I just hitch a ride."

I use a Science Fantasy genre tag within Calibre for such books like the Pellucidar, Barsoom and Venus series by Edgar Rice Burroughs.

He tended to be the master of mixing fantasy elements with science/technology elements.

There's a whole line of them. Leigh Brackett mined that territory. So did C. L. Moore

And you can argue that a fair number of books that could be called SF when written have become Science Fantasy now, simply because we've learned better, and we're aware, for example, that there isn't a habitable surface under the clouds of Venus.

Another more recent example of that genre would be the Hells Gate series by David Weber and Linda Evans.

Yep.
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Dennis

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

For some reason, I thought of the small dragon in Mu-Lan. "I'm a dragon, not a lizard! I don't do the tongue thing!"

But ask Nimitz, and he'd probably say "Why should I want to breath fire? If I want something burnt, I ask my two-legs to do it. Same thing if I want to fly. I just hitch a ride."

My 16 year old daughter's favourite Walt Disney movie. I certainly recognise the quote, though I cannot see Nimitz having a similar voice to Eddie Murphy!

Honor could certainly "burn" an opponent if it came to that and Nimitz is no slouch at defending himself and his "person" either.

And you can argue that a fair number of books that could be called SF when written have become Science Fantasy now, simply because we've learned better, and we're aware, for example, that there isn't a habitable surface under the clouds of Venus.

So true! But they make great light reading. I have been working through Harry's ERB omnibuses on my smartphone for the past 12 months usually waiting whilst my wife or daughter are clothes shopping.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by sabredog

My 16 year old daughter's favourite Walt Disney movie. I certainly recognise the quote, though I cannot see Nimitz having a similar voice to Eddie Murphy!

Well, Nimitz doesn't really have a voice. If you want to hear Eddie Murphy's voice in your head saying the words when he's signing, I see no reason why you couldn't.

Honor could certainly "burn" an opponent if it came to that and Nimitz is no slouch at defending himself and his "person" either.

Oh, boy, can she. Of course, there might not even be ashes left when she does. And Nimitz has certainly demonstrated his skill. I have a short list of folks in the series I'm wondering whether Nimitz might find himself dealing with at some point down the road.

So true! But they make great light reading. I have been working through Harry's ERB omnibuses on my smartphone for the past 12 months usually waiting whilst my wife or daughter are clothes shopping.

Aren't those omnibuses delightful? I have them as individual ebooks, too, but Harry's versions have won pride of place.
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Dennis

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Oh, boy, can she. Of course, there might not even be ashes left when she does. And Nimitz has certainly demonstrated his skill. I have a short list of folks in the series I'm wondering whether Nimitz might find himself dealing with at some point down the road.


Aren't those omnibuses delightful? I have them as individual ebooks, too, but Harry's versions have won pride of place.
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Dennis

You too?

I would love to see a similar undertaking with his singleton novels as well such as "Beyond the Furtherest Star, Lost Continent etc...

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by sabredog

You too?

I would love to see a similar undertaking with his singleton novels as well such as "Beyond the Furtherest Star, Lost Continent etc...

Submit a request in the e-Book Requests and Begging forum. Harry is pretty responsive, and is a Burroughs fan, so the limiting factor will be his time to do it.
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Dennis

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Submit a request in the e-Book Requests and Begging forum. Harry is pretty responsive, and is a Burroughs fan, so the limiting factor will be his time to do it.
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Dennis

Done!

Cheers

[GeoffC]

he'll be pleased !

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

he'll be pleased !

Doesn't hurt to ask though

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Would they also toss James H. Schmitz's "Federation of the Hub" stories into the fantasy pot, since many of them feature a heroine who is a powerful telepath, and psi powers are an accepted part of her society?

Psi powers are like warp drive and time travel: Conventions that have just been accepted into SF because they've been around for so long, regardless of the evidence against its existence (or lack of evidence for its existence, depending on how you look at it).

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Psi powers are like warp drive and time travel: Conventions that have just been accepted into SF because they've been around for so long, regardless of the evidence against its existence (or lack of evidence for its existence, depending on how you look at it).

Oh, sure. I think of such things as wallpaper. At this point, they are taken for granted, and the author may not bother with an explanation of how they work.

I enjoyed the tack taken by David Brin in his Uplift series: if it was possible to go FTL at all, there was more than one way to do it, and different galactic species used different methods. The Tandu, for instance, had a Client species called the Episiarchs, developed for psi powers. A Tandu ship got from one place to another because a resident Episiarch denied the ship was where it was so strongly that space warped around it, and Poof! - the ship was somewhere else. Sometimes the ship went Poof! and didn't reappear, so no other species adopted the method, but the Tandu were willing to accept the risks.

Brian Aldiss did a story where the narrator says "FTL travel? Oh, yes. Had it for decades. I'd be happy to tell you how it works, but the printer refuses to typeset the three pages of equations needed to give the explanation, so lets just take my word for it and carry on, shall we?" I just about fell off my chair laughing.
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Dennis