Onyx Boox M96 - Page 7

markom · 03-17-2014, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mono

I guess ManDay may be right. 10" is too small to be comfortable for academic reading even for people with good eyesight. Not speaking of old proffesors....

13'' is just right. But beside the size also the speed matters. It is true that it takes time to read A4 page in tiny print. But it is handy to be able to flip pages fast to allow reader quick reference. Slow flipping might be a problém for certain users.

To me, speed of flipping and scribbling pose a greater issue for academic reading, because I can read A4 pdf in landscape mode with margins removed and even get a slight magnification in comparison to a paper.

Luckily problem can be solved by using some tablet simultaneously, so that in the end we do spend majority of time reading on e-ink screen.

Mono · 03-17-2014, 10:28 AM

OK, we agree that speed of flipping is very important.

You are right, that using M92 landscape one can read academic papers. For some papers it works just fine, for some not so fine. It is not so rare that last lines of first column refer to formula or graph, that is located at top of second column (or vice versa.)

Simply sometimes one needs to see the whole A4 page. But it depends on type of text, if it is in one column or two, if it has formulaes, graphs and tables or not.

If 10" in landscape will do therefore depends on compexity of the text. For plain text in one or two columns probably yes. For one column text with few formulaes/graphs probably also. But for complex texts, where it is expected that reader can see the whole page or even two pages most probably not.

But you are right, one may use other faster device for quick reference. 10" is great and is usable, but with limits....

I have talked about all in one solution.

markom · 03-17-2014, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mono

...
But you are right, one may use other faster device for quick reference. 10" is great and is usable, but with limits....

I have talked about all in one solution.

Regrettably I don't even see DPT-S1 as all in one solution, especially for the lack of color, both at scribbling and reading.

Guess we'll have to wait another two to three years for that if some good reflective color LCD tablet doesn't miraculously hit the market in the meantime.

Mono · 03-17-2014, 03:05 PM

You are right about the colour.

But for now all in one B&W solution might do, for many applications. Not all.

The pen could be colour, it is a matter of software. Even the one on M92 could have a possibility to draw in colour. Better said it has possibility to draw in colour, but there are no means for user to change the pen colour.

ManDay · 03-18-2014, 03:03 AM

I agree with Mono that flipping speed and scribble are of equal importance compared to screen size. Color, however, I couldn't care less for. All of my (print) books are black-and-white, and I don't have any use for color on the e-reader, either (obviously a matter of preference and which kind of books one reads).

I think, however, that page flipping speed and scribble do not necessarily depend on the speed of the device but rather on a well designed software. Something, that, unfortunately, the M92 suffers a complete lack of.

In fact, although completely satisfied with the hardware of the M92 (and I would recommend that part of the deal to anyone who asks), I can go as far as saying that I would not buy a 13.3" device if it had the M92's software (luckily, since Onyx switches to Android, that is no longer a question).

Indeed, page flipping on the M92 can sometimes be a pain. Something which could readily be alleviated by a working cache/pre-fetch mechanism. Similarly, the scribble application would practically double in usefulness if one could switch line-widths, eraser and pen and even tones of gray with a single click rather than through a cumbersome menu (there would be plenty of space for such buttons at the bottom which, instead, was wasted on an over-sized page indicator). Onyx did not care to consider these issues so the device feels much less responsive and usable than it actually could be made feel.
Needless to say, the ability to insert additional pages for scribbling into a PDF is another feature which was completely overlooked.

In theory, the M92's processor is well capable of delivering a speed which does not seriously impede a natural flow of reading and scribbling, i.e. the kind of experience one has with print books, where flipping pages is an (intuitive) matter of a split second.

pkbo · 03-18-2014, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManDay

I think, however, that page flipping speed and scribble do not necessarily depend on the speed of the device but rather on a well designed software.

When screen refresh takes about second no matter how well your software designed it will be slow. More powerful processor (more ram, cache/pre-fetch etc) will not solve this problem. The screen technology should be enhanced on this matter at first place.

Mono · 03-18-2014, 10:15 AM

I guess, everything depends on type of the document.

For simple texts, the screen refresh rate is the bottleneck, for more complex files it is the computing power and size of memory that slows things down. Things may be improved by SW optimization and so on, but it is quite expensive way which requires good, experienced and so well-paid programmers.

But I agree, that I can imagine user interface of M92 is way better. It would help the workflow. On the other side, M92 is still the best 10" e-ink reader I know.

So, my suggestion is, make it as strong as possible, so that the only bottleneck is the refresh rate of display. Onyx cannot address the bottleneck of display, but can address the rest.

markom · 03-18-2014, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mono

I guess, everything depends on type of the document.

...

So, my suggestion is, make it as strong as possible, so that the only bottleneck is the refresh rate of display. Onyx cannot address the bottleneck of display, but can address the rest.

In the meantime, those whose e-ink readers and tablets are slow at flipping through complex pdfs because of insufficient processor power and memory amount, can use k2pdfdopt app beforehand, to adjust pdf for their reader exact screen size and resolution, choosing bitmap mode instead of native if some complex pdf compression is envolved and at the same time automatically crop margins and adjust for landscape view.

JetBook color and Pocketbook Color Lux come to my mind immediately but I have been using it successfully for all my e-ink readers and tablets and those in my vicinity.

http://www.willus.com/k2pdfopt/

I'm really looking forward to M96 this or next month and if price is going to be about the same as M92's I'll buy one even if there is no noticeable speed improvement in pdf flipping and scriblling.

Mono · 03-19-2014, 06:25 AM

Good idea, it solves some problems, for some users.

If you convert to bitmat, one cannot use searching and annotating. That is needed for academic reading...

But still, good idea. I am looking forward to M96 as well.

markom · 03-19-2014, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mono

Good idea, it solves some problems, for some users.

If you convert to bitmat, one cannot use searching and annotating. That is needed for academic reading...

But still, good idea. I am looking forward to M96 as well.

We can do the quick or detailed OCR on that bitmap again (if we have used some virtual printer for its creation) but with k2pdfopt(new versions) there is no need for that because it will retain OCR layer in the bitmap.

If we are simultaneously using tablet for searching, highlighting and scribbling then there is really no need to have OCR-ed pdf on e-ink too.

ManDay · 03-19-2014, 02:06 PM

Mono, why do you consider buying an M96 if you already have an M92? Actually, I'm not quite sure what differences between the two devices remain if it's not speed, let alone why anyone with an M92 would by an M96...?

Mono · 03-20-2014, 07:21 AM

I am not sure, if I buy it. Maybe I'll wait for 13". But still I am looking forward to it. My M92 is more than 2 years old. Will need replacement sooner or later....

talizh · 03-20-2014, 08:08 AM

The M96 has Android 4.0, right? I think the ability to side-load additional reading apps such as EzPDF or Moon Reader on the M96 would make it worthwhile right there (if, indeed, that is possible). I think most of us agree that the M92 hardware is fine, just the software is problematic. Well, the M96 and Android would solve the software problems, no?

Mono · 03-20-2014, 11:33 AM

We will see, how well android works on M96. If well, than it might be step forward.

RohanOrhanHaron · 04-08-2014, 06:38 PM

Have the new ereaders been released?
It seems to be listed on alibaba.
http://m.alibaba.com/product/1776170..._9_7_Eink.html
And pages for the T68, i86 as well.

03-18-2014, 03:03 AM	#95
ManDay E-Reader Posts: 274 Karma: 1606616 Join Date: Oct 2012 Device: DPT-S1	I agree with Mono that flipping speed and scribble are of equal importance compared to screen size. Color, however, I couldn't care less for. All of my (print) books are black-and-white, and I don't have any use for color on the e-reader, either (obviously a matter of preference and which kind of books one reads). I think, however, that page flipping speed and scribble do not necessarily depend on the speed of the device but rather on a well designed software. Something, that, unfortunately, the M92 suffers a complete lack of. In fact, although completely satisfied with the hardware of the M92 (and I would recommend that part of the deal to anyone who asks), I can go as far as saying that I would not buy a 13.3" device if it had the M92's software (luckily, since Onyx switches to Android, that is no longer a question). Indeed, page flipping on the M92 can sometimes be a pain. Something which could readily be alleviated by a working cache/pre-fetch mechanism. Similarly, the scribble application would practically double in usefulness if one could switch line-widths, eraser and pen and even tones of gray with a single click rather than through a cumbersome menu (there would be plenty of space for such buttons at the bottom which, instead, was wasted on an over-sized page indicator). Onyx did not care to consider these issues so the device feels much less responsive and usable than it actually could be made feel. Needless to say, the ability to insert additional pages for scribbling into a PDF is another feature which was completely overlooked. In theory, the M92's processor is well capable of delivering a speed which does not seriously impede a natural flow of reading and scribbling, i.e. the kind of experience one has with print books, where flipping pages is an (intuitive) matter of a split second. Last edited by ManDay; 03-18-2014 at 03:08 AM.

04-08-2014, 06:38 PM	#105
RohanOrhanHaron Junior Member Posts: 4 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2013 Device: none	is it out? Have the new ereaders been released? It seems to be listed on alibaba. http://m.alibaba.com/product/1776170..._9_7_Eink.html And pages for the T68, i86 as well.

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03-17-2014, 10:28 AM	#92
Mono Mono Posts: 699 Karma: 13333 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Boox M92	OK, we agree that speed of flipping is very important. You are right, that using M92 landscape one can read academic papers. For some papers it works just fine, for some not so fine. It is not so rare that last lines of first column refer to formula or graph, that is located at top of second column (or vice versa.) Simply sometimes one needs to see the whole A4 page. But it depends on type of text, if it is in one column or two, if it has formulaes, graphs and tables or not. If 10" in landscape will do therefore depends on compexity of the text. For plain text in one or two columns probably yes. For one column text with few formulaes/graphs probably also. But for complex texts, where it is expected that reader can see the whole page or even two pages most probably not. But you are right, one may use other faster device for quick reference. 10" is great and is usable, but with limits.... I have talked about all in one solution.

03-17-2014, 03:05 PM	#94
Mono Mono Posts: 699 Karma: 13333 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Boox M92	You are right about the colour. But for now all in one B&W solution might do, for many applications. Not all. The pen could be colour, it is a matter of software. Even the one on M92 could have a possibility to draw in colour. Better said it has possibility to draw in colour, but there are no means for user to change the pen colour.

03-18-2014, 10:15 AM	#97
Mono Mono Posts: 699 Karma: 13333 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Boox M92	I guess, everything depends on type of the document. For simple texts, the screen refresh rate is the bottleneck, for more complex files it is the computing power and size of memory that slows things down. Things may be improved by SW optimization and so on, but it is quite expensive way which requires good, experienced and so well-paid programmers. But I agree, that I can imagine user interface of M92 is way better. It would help the workflow. On the other side, M92 is still the best 10" e-ink reader I know. So, my suggestion is, make it as strong as possible, so that the only bottleneck is the refresh rate of display. Onyx cannot address the bottleneck of display, but can address the rest.

03-19-2014, 06:25 AM	#99
Mono Mono Posts: 699 Karma: 13333 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Boox M92	Good idea, it solves some problems, for some users. If you convert to bitmat, one cannot use searching and annotating. That is needed for academic reading... But still, good idea. I am looking forward to M96 as well.

03-19-2014, 02:06 PM	#101
ManDay E-Reader Posts: 274 Karma: 1606616 Join Date: Oct 2012 Device: DPT-S1	Mono, why do you consider buying an M96 if you already have an M92? Actually, I'm not quite sure what differences between the two devices remain if it's not speed, let alone why anyone with an M92 would by an M96...?

03-20-2014, 07:21 AM	#102
Mono Mono Posts: 699 Karma: 13333 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Boox M92	I am not sure, if I buy it. Maybe I'll wait for 13". But still I am looking forward to it. My M92 is more than 2 years old. Will need replacement sooner or later....

03-20-2014, 08:08 AM	#103
talizh Enthusiast Posts: 36 Karma: 82 Join Date: Nov 2012 Device: none	The M96 has Android 4.0, right? I think the ability to side-load additional reading apps such as EzPDF or Moon Reader on the M96 would make it worthwhile right there (if, indeed, that is possible). I think most of us agree that the M92 hardware is fine, just the software is problematic. Well, the M96 and Android would solve the software problems, no?

03-20-2014, 11:33 AM	#104
Mono Mono Posts: 699 Karma: 13333 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Boox M92	We will see, how well android works on M96. If well, than it might be step forward.

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