Fanfiction extracter/downloader

[Redcard]

Okay.. I know there are a few fanfiction extracters and downloaders out there, but let me explain where I'm coming from.

I write and read fanfiction. I enjoy the gems I find, and .. sometimes it's not that easy to find gems. In most fanfiction sites, it seems people write "chapter by chapter" , which is also not something I do, but it gives me the ability to find out if someone is good or not good at a moment's notice. Does there exist a program out there that I can type a variety of URLs (or even better, point to a directory on fanfiction.net) and get the first chapters of every author?

Would there be a case for one of those things?

[HarryT]

The problem with most fanfiction, Redcard, is that it's techically illegal, being a work "derived" from that of another author without the permission of the copyright holder. Of course, many authors are probably flattered by having their work "extended" in that way, but that still doesn't alter the legal status.

I'm afraid that we don't permit fan-fiction to be posted on this site for this reason.

Any tool intended to promote its use could be similarly regarded as legally "dubious".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The problem with most fanfiction, Redcard, is that it's techically illegal, being a work "derived" from that of another author without the permission of the copyright holder. Of course, many authors are probably flattered by having their work "extended" in that way, but that still doesn't alter the legal status.

I'm afraid that we don't permit fan-fiction to be posted on this site for this reason.

Any tool intended to promote its use could be similarly regarded as legally "dubious".

There is fan fiction that has no legal problems (what do you mean by technically illegal?) so I do not understand why a tool would be problematic.

[Redcard]

I don't doubt the legality of it (or otherwise) , nor am I going to post it here

My question was more of the nature of the toolset I'm hunting for. Would it have a use amongst people here.

Or, failing that, Fanfiction.net has a corresponding website that deals with original work.. and this faces the same question.. good authors vs bad.. and the ability to aggregate and preview a subset of their work. The two sites operate EXACTLY the same way.

Would there be a use for such a tool? IS there such a tool?

[Redcard]

And whilst we get into technically illegal.. it's worth noting that Kovid's wonderful libprs500 likely is illegal in the US.. and that his inclusion of "News" also violates the same "anti-derivative formats" that fanfiction violates.

So trust me, I know it's a grey area, if not a black area.. but when we convert formats we're technically in the same area. When we use Book Designer or similar products to output Sony's LRF files, we're infringing on trade secrets per the DMCA.

So let's not kid ourselves. My purpose here is not to break laws, but to easily facilitate the finding of good fiction in a sea of bad and to get it into a format where I can read it on my Sony Reader.

Yes, to get it on there, I'd use a program to convert it to LRF. Shady. I run Linux, so I use the same program to get it up to the reader. Shady. Let's not be too critical of our vices here

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Redcard

And whilst we get into technically illegal.. it's worth noting that Kovid's wonderful libprs500 likely is illegal in the US.. and that his inclusion of "News" also violates the same "anti-derivative formats" that fanfiction violates.

SNIP

Actually, format shifting of content that is otherwise legally acquired is generally considered to fall under legitimate "fair use" in the US, and thus would not be illegal. And libprs500 does not itself violate the DMCA, so it's not a problem there either.

None of this is explicit in the law, nor has it been tested in court -- that's the big problem with relying on "fair use." If you are really concerned about legality or possible legal consequences, get written advice of counsel on the subject. This will probably involve paying a lawyer*. It'll also reduce the likelihood of punitive damages should you ever find yourself in court.

Meanwhile, the position stated by Harryt is the only one that Mobileread-the-web-site can reasonably take.

Xenophon
*I got written advice of counsel via a small graduate seminar that explored these issues. One of the speakers was an eminent lawyer who specializes in IP and copyright issues; he kindly provided written advice of counsel to all the students spelling out his considered opinion on what is likely to be legal. I am not a lawyer, so you can't place legal reliance on what I wrote above. But if you can get a licensed lawyer to put himself on record, you can at least establish that no punitive damages are in order. It's not a guarantee, but the fact that you took the trouble to get and follow an expert opinion on the law goes a long way in establishing intent -- thus you'd probably get off with actual damages only. But not certainly.

[Redcard]

Actually, libprs500 reverse engineered the ebook reader. .and other software attached to it reverse engineers the LRF file. Under the DMCA, they are in violation.. as the list of exceptions no longer covers that kind of stuff.

But, regardless.. will do. I'll privately code this and move on. Sorry I asked.

[HarryT]

Is reverse engineering really illegal in the US? It didn't use to be - "clone" PC makers reversed engineered the IBM PC's BIOS, for example. You just have to show that you're not copying any of the original code in doing so.

It's perfectly legal still to do this in the EU.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Is reverse engineering really illegal in the US? It didn't use to be - "clone" PC makers reversed engineered the IBM PC's BIOS, for example. You just have to show that you're not copying any of the original code in doing so.

It's perfectly legal still to do this in the EU.

Same same in the US. Except when it comes to reverse engineering to defeat encryption. That specific activity is outlawed by the DMCA.

My considered opinion is that such a restriction is unconstitutional, and, of course, my opinion is worth ever so much more than that of an actual lawyer, much less a Supreme Court justice. I can't even type that with a straight face

More seriously, the constitutionality of that portion of the DMCA has yet to be tested in court. Anyone care to place a bet in the lawsuit lottery? Remember, if you lose it's a serious felony!

Libprs500 itself is clearly OK on the reverse engineering front -- the parts kovid reverse engineered have nothing to do with encryption. Likewise, he's good on the "defeating encryption" part, as libprs500 only manages the conversion of non-DRM'd files.

The guys who figured out how to get convertlit to bust MS-Reader encryption, however, may have a problem. Or not. Depending on the outcome of that court case that hasn't happened; and whether they live in (or enter) US jurisdiction. And...

Xenophon

P.S. Note that the act of breaking the encryption for personal use remains entirely legal. Writing or producing a tool to do so violates the DMCA, as does telling someone else how to use or where to get such a tool. But if you can manage to just do it, you're fine.

[HarryT]

Thanks X!

[Redcard]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Is reverse engineering really illegal in the US? It didn't use to be - "clone" PC makers reversed engineered the IBM PC's BIOS, for example. You just have to show that you're not copying any of the original code in doing so.

It's perfectly legal still to do this in the EU.

It's very weird.

Sony themselves have used DMCA to take down sites involving simply getting access to.. without any level of encryption.. the PSP's file system. They also successfully used the DMCA against a number of 3rd party Memory Card makers who were making larger Memory Cards than Sony's. They TRIED to use it against people who were making third party controllers, but that got struck down because the controllers are simply USB controllers with a different prong.

I'm glad that they're not as harsh on the Reader front, but I assure you, they've successfully taken action on things involving simple access to the device (not involving cryptography) using the DMCA.

[kovidgoyal]

While I did reverse engineer the USB protocol for the PRS 500, the 505 exposes itself as a USB storage device, no reverse engineering required there.

[Redcard]

*nods*

But anyway, back to my question.

Does anyone have a use for (or better yet, know of) this type of story downloader/sampler thing?

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Redcard

It's very weird.

Sony themselves have used DMCA to take down sites involving simply getting access to.. without any level of encryption.. the PSP's file system. They also successfully used the DMCA against a number of 3rd party Memory Card makers who were making larger Memory Cards than Sony's. They TRIED to use it against people who were making third party controllers, but that got struck down because the controllers are simply USB controllers with a different prong.

I'm glad that they're not as harsh on the Reader front, but I assure you, they've successfully taken action on things involving simple access to the device (not involving cryptography) using the DMCA.

Yes, they have. The "successfully" part, however, hinges on the difference between "that which is legal" and "that which one can afford to contest with Sony's sharks (er... lawyers) and Sony's deep pockets." They haven't, to my knowledge, won any of these cases in court (except one that was overturned on appeal); the take-downs have all been cases of "take it down or we'll sue" rather than "court-ordered permanent injunction."

Of course, that's cold comfort if you turn out to be the one on the receiving end of a legal demand letter from Sony. The EFF'd probably be glad to take the case for someone like Kovid, though, given that he's pretty clearly squeaky-clean and actually doing Sony a favor by making Sony's readers more attractive products.

Xenophon

[kovidgoyal]

Actually, if SONY ever did threaten me, I'd just drop support for their products, like a hot potato. Given the modular nature of libprs500, it would require maybe a week of work to add another (well understood) ebook format as an output format. In particular, mobi and epub should both be easy