Doctorow on the e-book rip-off for libraries

[watchMaker]

Originally Posted by Fourl29

To be honest Harry I 've never seen a book degrade to the point of being unusable. And if someone actually damages a book to the extent that it is unusable the library have them replace it.

good point

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The answer is self-evident. The library is paying more because they are buying more rights. When you buy an ebook, you are buying it for personal use only; the library is buying a multi-user licence.

It's no different to buying a single-user licence or a multi-user licence for a piece of software. Do you think that that's wrong, too?

Don't they (publishers) also get paid for each withdrawal? Why should taxpayers money go toward double-dipping?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Don't they (publishers) also get paid for each withdrawal?

In most western countries, libraries pay an author directly (not the publisher - the author) every time a paper book is borrowed from a library; this is called the "public lending right" (PLR). In the UK, for example, an author is paid about 6p (around US 10c) for each loan. But I don't know if this also applies to ebook loans.

The US is one of the few western nations not to have a PLR.

I have no idea if a publisher gets paid for an ebook loan. Overdrive certainly charge a fee, but none of that goes to the publisher; it's simply a charge for using the Overdrive system.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Don't they (publishers) also get paid for each withdrawal? Why should taxpayers money go toward double-dipping?

Maybe in Canada but the UK has PLR which goes to the author... and each amount is a totally trivial sum and totals are capped as well...

[petrucci]

Although I detest the publishers pricing scheme, they do not have a monopoly and are not selling an essential product. If you do not like their prices, then do not buy their stuff. If you are an author and do not like their business practices, then do not do business with them.

The publishers are playing with fire. If libraries and universities stop buying their overpriced products, they could go out of business in the blink of an eye. There are more novels and textbooks published by alternative presses than ever before. Many of them are not the best books, but some of them are great.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by elcreative

Maybe in Canada but the UK has PLR which goes to the author... and each amount is a totally trivial sum and totals are capped as well...

It's not that trivial if you're a reasonably popular author with good library loans. I used to have a close friend, an SF author called Bob Shaw (now dead) who made a respectable amount of money each year from the PLR.

[arjaybe]

Using the ebooks-are-licensed-like-software argument, shouldn't we also accept limits on how many documents we can create with a word processor? If a library is to be limited to 26 lends by the license, shouldn't authors be limited to, say, 1,000 documents by the license on their word processor? After all, you only need to buy the program once and you can use it forever, depriving the vendor of the income it's entitled to.

rjb

[pidgeon92]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

It's true that this is outsourced at most libraries, but they pay quite a bit for the service (plus Adobe gets their $0.08 per checkout on books using their DRM),

Wait... what? So if I choose to borrow an ePub instead of a Kindle version of a book, I'm costing my library an extra 8¢? I wish I'd known that earlier.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Using the ebooks-are-licensed-like-software argument, shouldn't we also accept limits on how many documents we can create with a word processor? If a library is to be limited to 26 lends by the license, shouldn't authors be limited to, say, 1,000 documents by the license on their word processor? After all, you only need to buy the program once and you can use it forever, depriving the vendor of the income it's entitled to.

rjb

Any software publisher is perfectly free to impose such licence conditions. It's a free market, and the market will decide whether or not that's a commercially viable marketing strategy, just as libraries have decided that the licensing conditions imposed by Overdrive are acceptable to them. Nobody's holding a gun to their head and saying "you must provide Overdrive ebooks".

If you think that you can start an ebook lending system in competition to Overdrive that has less "unfair" licensing terms, go for it. The market will decide whether or not you're right.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

Wait... what? So if I choose to borrow an ePub instead of a Kindle version of a book, I'm costing my library an extra 8¢? I wish I'd known that earlier.

It's factored into the administrative fees places like OverDrive charge (I believe it's a contacted annual rate), but yes Adobe gets a fee every time their DRM is applied. It's less that a 'permanent' license which last I knew was $.22 and if I'm recalling correctly it's $.08 per checkout. It's one of the reason long time OD using libraries saw big increases in their annual fees from OD, more people, by a large factor, got into ebooks and library checkouts. I have zero idea if Amazon gets any kind of fee for Kindle checkouts. I'm guessing no as they get other benefits, but that's just a guess.

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you think that you can start an ebook lending system in competition to Overdrive that has less "unfair" licensing terms, go for it. The market will decide whether or not you're right.

Please don't make it personal.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Please don't make it personal.

I'm not making it personal. I'm simply saying that it's a free market, and anyone - including you - can compete with Overdrive if they wish to do so. The market will decide what is, or is not, a commercially acceptable licensing model. If someone can come up with a business model that's better than Overdrive's, then they are free to have a go.

You say that you're unhappy with the Overdrive model. What do you think would be an improvement?

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You say that you're unhappy with the Overdrive model. What do you think would be an improvement?

I said nothing like that.

[HarryT]

My apologies; your "if ebooks are licensed like software" post mistakenly led me to the conclusion that you were dissatisfied with Overdrive's licensing model.

[TimW]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

It's factored into the administrative fees places like OverDrive charge (I believe it's a contacted annual rate), but yes Adobe gets a fee every time their DRM is applied. It's less that a 'permanent' license which last I knew was $.22 and if I'm recalling correctly it's $.08 per checkout. It's one of the reason long time OD using libraries saw big increases in their annual fees from OD, more people, by a large factor, got into ebooks and library checkouts. I have zero idea if Amazon gets any kind of fee for Kindle checkouts. I'm guessing no as they get other benefits, but that's just a guess.

That sounds similar to pricing for Adobe Content Server. It costs $10,000 for first year, $1500 for subsequent years, $0.22 for permanent licenses, and $0.08 for expiring licenses.