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Old 06-18-2013, 02:03 PM   #286
speakingtohe
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Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks View Post
There are blogs. I blog and post reviews of good indie books. Here's a GR group where I'm a mod:

http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...-readers-group

(Authors: Do not join if you are going to post your book, your friends book or anyone you know. I have friends who are authors. I like their books. I do not post about their books even if I like their books. Don't do it.)

But finding books often ties in with a simple thread of: I'm looking for...

caleb has a blog and reviews indie books. They are out there. Is the sorting harder? I don't know. I'm very picky about what I will buy. Price matters, the library availability matters, etc.
My understanding, which may be out of date, is that there is very little library availability for Indies?

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Old 06-18-2013, 02:33 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
My understanding, which may be out of date, is that there is very little library availability for Indies?

Helen
True. I think most of my series are in about 3 libraries across the US (which means for a local library, you can try to request them via interlibrary loan.) Few libraries will carry indie books because 1. they don't have to 2. they are not well-reviewed 3. Their main source of review is Library Journal and LJ does not accept indie or most small publisher works

Libraries often accept indie works direct from the author and then sell them to buy something they would rather have. My own library does this quite frequently. Some librarians will tell the author when they donate the book that it will be sold, and of course, the author then doesn't donate it. Some libraries, of course, say nothing about the possibility it will be sold.

This can actually happen to a traditionally published author as well. I know one lady who donated an entire series -- it was her favorite author and she wanted the local library to have it. I forget the name of the author--fairly unknown, but trad. The person who donated the books was LIVID to discover she was sending people to the library to read the books, but the librarians put them in the sale bin and they were long gone. They were signed copies too. The person donating should have been told, but more often than not, the librarian doesn't want to argue or have to hear pleading so she says nothing.

A library in Houston had a program started to buy indie books for the ebook program, but it has been delayed. It was supposed to go live this summer. Six of my books were accepted into the program. Smashwords has a deal with a few libraries as well. They take the top 10,000 best sellers from Smashwords (if the author agrees to sell to the library for a one time payment) and they are then available in an assortment of libraries.

If you want to borrow indie works, your best bet is to join Lendleme. They have a decent amount of books for lending. That's where I get many of the ones I read. It's anonymous in that you aren't asking the author for a thing, it's automatic download if you have a kindle (the loan/borrow is done from Amazon). There is also a thread on the aforementioned GR group that I linked to--it's a borrow/lend thread. You ask for a book you want to read and if someone has it, they can lend it via Amazon or Nook. I don't know if Kobobooks has a lend library or not.

There are resources, they are just not necessarily mainstream.

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Old 06-18-2013, 02:42 PM   #288
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I don't see the quantity of books making a big difference. There were too many books to wade through 20 years ago, if you were to even think of trying. According to Google there were almost 130 million in 2010. , not totally accurate they admit, but close enough. If one assumes that even half are Indie, which is doubtful in 2010, still leaves 65 million books to wade through.

Narrowing it down to your preferred type of book, might bring the number down to under a million, but probably not.

So how do we deal with this.

I am old, and have been reading 100-300 books a year for more than 50 years, I have read more than 100 already this year. I have a list of 544 authors that I like, 236 that I really really like, and a list of 76 that I think I will like compiled by recommendations on MR, literature map and various blogs.

AFAIK, and this is not by intent, all authors on my lists are traditionally published, and some have no ebooks published.

The blogs I look at are often from MR postings, things like best Fantasy books ever, Mystery threads etc. and the books reviewed, recommended are all traditionally published.

If bloggers and Amazon reviewers are to be the new gatekeepers, then there has to be a fair mix on their sites.

I am not going to look for Indie books specifically, but if a good review site had Indie books recommended I would be as likely to read those as traditionally published. I don't read everything recommended by a site, but if the reviewers taste seems to coincide with mine, I will strongly consider most that I haven't read already, Indie or not.

So tell me some good balanced sites that review both Indie and traditionally published that you have found treasures on. Indie books that excited and thrilled you, not just ok to read stuff, really good books.

I'm Listening

Helen


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Old 06-18-2013, 02:44 PM   #289
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Also if anyone is looking for a particular genre/recommendations, feel free to ask me. If I know the genre and know any decent indie books, I'll happily recommend them. It doesn't mean our tastes will coincide, but in general, I can at least tell you if the plot holds together and if a book is or isn't riddled with typos. Then you can at least have a place to start if you're looking to try an indie or borrow one, etc. That's what the whole GR group is for. There are some other readers on that group who are better read than I am in some of the genres. And yeah, you'll find we slip out and talk other books too. Because really it's all about good books, not how they are published.

If you don't want to discuss the whole thing in public, feel free to PM me. I'll help point people where I can.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:16 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
It clutters the marketplace and makes it harder to find decent books. It lowers the prestige of the writing profession--significantly. It devalues books. It adds to the already vast quantities of trash out there.
Can't you just sort them by price? The ones with the higher prices will be published by corporations, therefore safe for you to read. Except for the ones by Rizzy, but if you also stayed within the top 100 sellers sorted by price you could avoid those as well.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:20 PM   #291
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What has "number of books" to do with really good books?

The publishing process develops the author and also enhance the books a lot so the probability for a really good book increases.
Fifty Shades of Grey had no "enhancement" when it went from self- to corporation-published. Both versions were identical, with the same mistakes. The only difference was in price.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:12 PM   #292
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Fifty Shades of Grey had no "enhancement" when it went from self- to corporation-published. Both versions were identical, with the same mistakes. The only difference was in price.
Read more carefully what I say. I have never said that the number of not-really good books decreases. The point is that I and many others want to read the best books possible. We are not interested in just OK books.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:14 PM   #293
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If bloggers and Amazon reviewers are to be the new gatekeepers, then there has to be a fair mix on their sites.
Neither is or will be a gatekeeper.
There simply won't be *any* gatekeepers in the broader publishing world.

Amazon doesn't refuse any book that meets their terms of service. They're not publishers, just distributors. All they require is that you actually have the right to publish the book, it shouldn't be an identical copy of somebody else's upload, and it shouldn't be illegal or offend too many people.

The blogs are primarily review and/or recommendation sites. They'll tell you what they like or don't like about whatever titles they can cover. They have no say on what gets published.

Our new publishing world isn't one where the fences have moved out to include more titles; it is a world with no fences at all.

If you insist on gatekept/filtered content then you really need to filter it yourself or join a book club/reading circle. (Scary if you're not already resigned to that reality.)
Or stay within the catalog of traditional publishers.

What is happening to publishing is the equivalent of what happened to cable TV since the 80's, when most TV markets went from a handful of broadcast networks to literally hundreds of cable channels (most with original content), *compounded* with what has happened in the past few years with the arrival of iTunes, XBOX Video, Vudu, Hulu, Netflix et al.
All at once. Practically overnight.

We've moved from ABC+CBS+NBC+FOX+ (maybe) a couple of over the air local independent TV stations...

To this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ9qcp6Lcno

We have moved from a world where in 2003 there were about 300,000 books published in the US to one where there were over 3Million new titles in 2012. And then there is the return of the backlist, all the out of print titles that were only available used. Millions upon millions. And that is *before* the new indie titles.

Changes like that require new ways of thinking.
Trying to shoehorn all that content through the old filters, the old mindset, is like trying to get a sip of water from a water main; you're likely to drown first.

Last edited by fjtorres; 06-18-2013 at 06:27 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:06 PM   #294
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Maaawww.... up until 1502, it was possible to own every printed book ever released, provided you had the money. How am I supposed to read 3 million books a year? Lunacy! I can't even read that many blurbs to make a choice!

Writing should become a protected profession. Something you can study... a study that takes 15 years, requires an A++ to pass, and you'll only earn an average salary, ever. Then only the very best and most devoted people will write. A new book should be at least 1000 pages long, and writers must be prohibited to write more than one book every 10 years. A new release should cost $500.

That way, books will be great to read, be worth a lot again, and I'll be able to own every book ever printed as of that time.

Someone who takes this post seriously, will be awarded reverse Karma.

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Old 06-18-2013, 07:48 PM   #295
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Given that the industry dynamic is shifting, change is inevitable. People now have access to more books than they would have ever thought possible. And it has happened in an incredibly short time.

Whenever you have change at such a rampant rate, there will be people praising it (early adopters), and traditionalists claiming that the world is coming to an end. Neither are right or wrong. It's just a matter of differing opinions.

However I have to agree that due to the ease at which works can now be self published there is a lot of work flooding the market that should have been thoroughly edited and proof read before publication.

I think that there are enough people out there willing to take a shot at a new indie book and provide a review, which then allows those of us who are more likely to act on recommendations to give it a try. By way of word of mouth the indie book may then take off and see successful sales growth. Or it may plummet into obscurity.

What I feel needs to happen is a natural shift/growth in the platforms through which we purchase books, so that the end users (Us the readers) can contribute to fixing the flaw in the system. Something along the lines of a better tiered rating system. At the moment we generally only see a 1-5 star rating to a book, be it on Amazon, smashwords etc. What if this changed to the following;

Story: 1-5 stars
Formatting and Grammar: 1-5 stars
Overall: An aggregate of the two.

Each book would be given a rating based on, did the reader enjoy the story, and whether there were issues with the spelling or layout. This would then be clearly visible to purchasers. The beauty of ebooks is that they are a living breathing beast. They can be edited and re-uploaded. I believe most serious authors would revisit their work if they were getting reviews of 4-5 stars for story but only 1-3 for formatting.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:04 PM   #296
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If you are determined to only buy trad-pub'ed books all ebookstores let you filter books by price. That right there keeps the rabble at bay.
No it doesn't. I have been buying trad published books for 99 cents, 1.99, 2.99 etc. They have been having a lot of sales in recent months. So price means really nothing. There are backlists published by trad publishers for 2.99. There are new books published for the same price. So no, sorting by price does nothing to sort anything



Quote:
The tools are there. And they're not hard to use; after all, Amazon wants to *sell* books. They don't much care as long as *we* are happy and keep coming back.
I don't really see any tools other than sorting by price and publishing date etc. So that still leaves me with 1000's and 1000's of books to sort through.
And picking a publisher doesn't help me at all, there are so many of them.


Quote:
Of course, those of us that don't care about a book's provenance are more interested in the blurbs and covers and reviews, but those aspects are covered too.
I do that too, in addition to all the other vetting I now have to do, which I didn't in the past.

Quote:
Really, it's not hard to wade through the infamous "tsunami of crap".
Yes it is. Its hard and very time consuming. For someone like me that likes to read 100's of books it is impossible to check every single book.
But I now have to do that.
I used to love browsing my favorite genres, romance for example. I could go in and just sort by publication, or see what just came out the last 30 days. It was fun.
Now romance is flooded with gunk. Flyers sold as books, particle books, books sold by chapters, unedited stuff that is so bad I even notice it. And also a lot of stuff thrown into romance, even if it isn't. Almost always indy books. Romance sells, so that is where they stick it.

I don't notice the occasional spelling issue. English is not my first language. So when I notice the messes, they are really bad.

Are there gems out there? Of course, I found a few of them. But I came across them on reader boards, not from my own searches.

So yes, its bad right now. Personally, if I could just get a filter to filter out anything under like 100 pages or so, it would help me a lot. Most of those are indy's.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:00 PM   #297
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Neither is or will be a gatekeeper.
There simply won't be *any* gatekeepers in the broader publishing world.

Amazon doesn't refuse any book that meets their terms of service. They're not publishers, just distributors. All they require is that you actually have the right to publish the book, it shouldn't be an identical copy of somebody else's upload, and it shouldn't be illegal or offend too many people.

The blogs are primarily review and/or recommendation sites. They'll tell you what they like or don't like about whatever titles they can cover. They have no say on what gets published.

Our new publishing world isn't one where the fences have moved out to include more titles; it is a world with no fences at all.

If you insist on gatekept/filtered content then you really need to filter it yourself or join a book club/reading circle. (Scary if you're not already resigned to that reality.)
Or stay within the catalog of traditional publishers.

What is happening to publishing is the equivalent of what happened to cable TV since the 80's, when most TV markets went from a handful of broadcast networks to literally hundreds of cable channels (most with original content), *compounded* with what has happened in the past few years with the arrival of iTunes, XBOX Video, Vudu, Hulu, Netflix et al.
All at once. Practically overnight.

We've moved from ABC+CBS+NBC+FOX+ (maybe) a couple of over the air local independent TV stations...

To this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ9qcp6Lcno

We have moved from a world where in 2003 there were about 300,000 books published in the US to one where there were over 3Million new titles in 2012. And then there is the return of the backlist, all the out of print titles that were only available used. Millions upon millions. And that is *before* the new indie titles.

Changes like that require new ways of thinking.
Trying to shoehorn all that content through the old filters, the old mindset, is like trying to get a sip of water from a water main; you're likely to drown first.
I don't insist on gatekept content in fact I don't care for the term. I admit to concluding from other posts in this thread that the new gatekeepers are perceived to be reviewers and bloggers etc. and that they will do a better job than the publishers are doing now and have done in the past. I may have misunderstood, and maybe I didn't

I'm not convinced that they will be better although some will be excellent. Excellent or not a thousand or so dedicated and intelligent people would have a hard time sorting through all of the available books, both Indie and Traditional.

As to your statement
Quote:
There simply won't be *any* gatekeepers in the broader publishing world.
it seems a bit at odds with your statement in post 112 of this thread.
Quote:
In the world we live in, *we* the readers are the gatekeepers.
Although perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

I'm definitely unclear as to the TV analogy. Sure there are quite a few stations, but most are pretty clear on their content, and there is a lot of youtube etc. video and has been for years. But looking for a video on how to fix your sink, or the latest episode of your favorite show or a sporting event seems pretty easy these days. Compared to finding a book by an unknown author without a trusted source of information (see I didn't say gatekeeper), that you are willing to fork out cash for finding video seems trivial indeed.

Helen
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:44 AM   #298
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How is the sheer amount of crap being put out by authors with a Macbook Pro and a credit line with Starbucks any worse than the current, more traditional industry (sans the obligatory submission of material to an editor and the like)?

Granted, there is more shoveling going on simply because more people can use the power of the internet to pop out whatever they like, but the crap-to-gold ratio doesn't seem all that different from regular book publishing.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:18 AM   #299
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Granted, there is more shoveling going on simply because more people can use the power of the internet to pop out whatever they like, but the crap-to-gold ratio doesn't seem all that different from regular book publishing.
It is, it's far, far higher, as has been discussed at length earlier in this thread. The overwhelming majority of independently-published books are unedited, and riddled with errors in spelling and grammar.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:29 AM   #300
Prestidigitweeze
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Thanks for the thoughtful post, Julian. It might have seemed to get lost between reiterations of the obvious, but it wasn't lost on some of us.

Personally, I'd love to see book ratings based on grammar and formatting, but expect strong resistance to that idea. Some people feel that even to mention grammar is to be a grammar Nazi and, as we've seen, people who don't understand idiosyncratic style and punctuation might actually downrate carefully written books (cf. works by Saramago, Celine and Clark Coolidge, all of which have been the subject of oblivious readers' complaints).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Saheed View Post
Given that the industry dynamic is shifting, change is inevitable. People now have access to more books than they would have ever thought possible. And it has happened in an incredibly short time.

Whenever you have change at such a rampant rate, there will be people praising it (early adopters), and traditionalists claiming that the world is coming to an end. Neither are right or wrong. It's just a matter of differing opinions.

However I have to agree that due to the ease at which works can now be self published there is a lot of work flooding the market that should have been thoroughly edited and proof read before publication.

I think that there are enough people out there willing to take a shot at a new indie book and provide a review, which then allows those of us who are more likely to act on recommendations to give it a try. By way of word of mouth the indie book may then take off and see successful sales growth. Or it may plummet into obscurity.

What I feel needs to happen is a natural shift/growth in the platforms through which we purchase books, so that the end users (Us the readers) can contribute to fixing the flaw in the system. Something along the lines of a better tiered rating system. At the moment we generally only see a 1-5 star rating to a book, be it on Amazon, smashwords etc. What if this changed to the following;

Story: 1-5 stars
Formatting and Grammar: 1-5 stars
Overall: An aggregate of the two.

Each book would be given a rating based on, did the reader enjoy the story, and whether there were issues with the spelling or layout. This would then be clearly visible to purchasers. The beauty of ebooks is that they are living breathing beasts. They can be edited and re-uploaded. I believe most serious authors would revisit their work if they were getting reviews of 4-5 stars for story but only 1-3 for formatting.

Thoughts?
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