Seriously thoughtful some thoughts on political correctness...

[kindlekitten]

wow! go off camping and what do I find! a total trainwreck!

so, first of all... I called someone a moron. I called this person a moron because they decided they needed to attribute my handle to a slavish infatuation to a corporate entity. this person was very new to the board and had no idea that my handle was a) my second one here, and b) actually a tribute to a very dear cat (tragically deceased) that was extremely infatuated with my Kindle, thus garnering that name which is now actually a tribute to her, and not any nod to the device. PLEASE NOTE I did not call the person an asshole which is certainly crass, or a retard, which is certainly actionable, I called them a moron. it was deleted. I can't imagine what folks may have thought I said to move a moderator to come in and state that complaints had been made and my words needed to be censored.

next... my signature which many many of you have asked me about...
A female college student on an exchange program with a country that I guess I can't mention, as apparently that caused some upset folks, has had a really rough ride. this girl was, I believe, falsely accused and subsequently incarcerated in what at best was a farcity of justice for a murder I, and many others truly believe she did not commit. my sig line WAS in support of her, asking for justice for her. I was threatened with banishment if I did not change it. for the most part I like hanging out here, find the majority of the people to be fairly intelligent, and like the discussions.

this leads me to... wow! who EVER thought it would be a good idea to discuss those videos on an international bulletin board? huh? really bright idea? and anyone was surprised it would get folks stirred up? people who are in, have been in, work with, train, etc the military, tend to have some pretty passionate views about what happens to and with our troops. I'm not trying to reopen the thread, but I would like to tell all of you armchair combat leaders that it isn't a game, it isn't easy. there isn't a reset button, there's not an option to go to the next level. you're given the information the people on the ground have knowing full well that it is not only your ass, but the folks with you and whatever retribution there may be that follows. you can NOT second guess what is going on unless you have done something similar. unless you have EVER been under hostile fire, don't presume. anything.

there is a trend in this country, and I am beginning to think it is springing up other places as well, to make EVERYONE win. in the little kids' games of soccer and baseball, no one wins, no one loses in attempt to make everyone feel good. I think this is a huge mistake. life is not like that. an attempt to make the internet like that is a mistake as well. unless you are running a site that starts out with "Disney" or "Playskool" or whatever, it needs to be accepted that everyone has graduated to their big girl panties to play. if you need your hand held, or to run to a moderator every time your feelings are ruffled, then maybe the interwebz isn't the right place for you.

if a place like the lounge is going to be provided, then it needs to be thought about like a place LIKE a lounge, a pub, a bar... a place where folks go after work (or before). to talk about the things that are important to them. and to BE ABLE TO TALK!!! about things that they may not be able to at work or at home, just like they would at their favorite watering hole. if you close your eyes, you can probably see the pool tables in the back with H.T., recluse, dsvick and poohbear in a hot game of 8 ball. in a seperate room away from the noise and silliness, Zelda and Florence are having tea and comparing their most recent purchases at the shops. Kaz dashes in inbetween soccer mom duties. WDE is proudly showing off his gorgeous pup. Adrian is swinging from the chandeliers while Marc cringes and wonders many lightbulbs will be shattered this time. Poets, Liars, Bikers, Cowboys, Heros, Cowards, Saints, Sinners, all have a chance to belly up.

or.... we are incredibly politically correct and have no lounge at all

[Sparrow]

My two-pennyworth.

Maybe it's a different cultures thing. In the UK 'moron' and 'asshole' are pretty much synonymous - I react to both the same way when they are used to describe me.

Also, with the trial thing - opinions differ, many people think it was a fair trial and justice was meted out. Of course every legal system results in miscarriages of justice from time to time, but a lot of the criticism seemed to be aimed at the country and its people, rather than the specifics of the trial itself.
I did read your sig before it was redacted, but can't remember the actual wording (sorry), however I do remember thinking I wouldn't have been happy if it had been about the UK (it was calling for a boycott of products iirc).

[Moejoe]

Every time I hear Americans speak about political correctness and how you have to be a paid killer to really understand the pressures paid killers are under, I think of this video, and I understand that at least some of your fellow countrymen appreciate the irony of ideology foisted upon others with bullets and bombs.




You are not the world Americans, you are not the ideology most of us follow, your values are not my values; I do no share your violence and ignorance, I do not salute your flag or any flag for that matter. You want your little adventures in the sand, fine, but don't expect me to be polite about killers, rogues and thieves just because they speak a similar language or stitch a flag to their arm. I no more support the paid killers from my own country than I do yours. I do not condone, nor will I ever, the murderous glee of the modern video-game soldier as he sits 1.5km distant from peaceful men and good samaritans then fires upon them death. You want to say I don't understand, you want to imply that somehow because I refuse the rifle and the violence attached I somehow don't have an opinion. I somehow don't matter because I haven't 'served'. Well here's news for you; I won't ever serve. I won't ever pick up the gun and point it at another human being. I won't ever follow blindly the orders of psychopaths and killers.

As my grandfather once said - It's easy to pick up a rifle, but it takes real courage to ignore one.

And as my Kurdish friend said:

The blood that seeps into the sand now fertilises the wrong kind of seeds.

These are the two Reuters employees who were murdered in the cowardly attack - (L) Saeed Chmagh (Driver, 40) Namir Noor-Eldeen (Photographer, 22). Both had families, both had lives that were wasted on the day that death was visited upon them from over 1km away by giggling psychopaths and the paid killers of an illegal occupation. Namir was an amazing photographer, a collection of some of his work can be found here: http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0...r-noor-eldeen/



So don't talk to me about political correctness and how the 'lounge' should be how you want it to be.

And now here's what I want. Will somebody please delete my effing account so I don't have to be associated with these people and this place any longer.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

I'm not trying to reopen the thread, but I would like to tell all of you armchair combat leaders that it isn't a game, it isn't easy. there isn't a reset button, there's not an option to go to the next level.

Ironic statement, given that many commentators on that video say that the attack was treated exactly like a video game-- this wasn't a heat of the moment decision-- this was minutes of sitting around watching people from a safe position while chatting with friends, coolly killing from that safe distance by pressing a button, and then having a good laugh with their buds about watching people die-- and then, AFTER the attack, simply cold-bloodedly murdering the people who attempted to rescue the injured man. You want to tell someone that war isn't a video game? Tell it to the kids behind those cameras laughing it up with their pals.

You think the forum was politically correct on that issue? Yes, it was-- people were far, FAR more polite about it than the reaction of utter contempt found on other forums I read.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...d_it_is_us.php

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/05...ideo-of-u.html

[dsvick]

Wow, this will be a good thread, right up until it gets out of hand

KK - I couldn't agree more with most of what you said. In most cases I'm very much of the opinion that if people get all worked up over someones opinion then it is them, not the person with opinion, who is wrong. I think the problem we have here is the global nature of the boards precludes everyone from understanding completely what others are saying unless it is spelled out pretty clearly. Not having seen your original sig I dont know if there was room for misinterpretation or not, in most cases though I guess we should err on the side of caution, but no so much so that we react in a knee jerk fashion to every perceived slight.

Moejoe - I'm not even going to... oh heck, sure I will...
"paid killers" !? "giggling psychopaths"?!! really!??!! You have got to be kidding me.

You're against killing, a lot of people are and that is a wonderful personal choice to make. Most people that I know, that have the same convictions, at least recognize the need for the various militarys of the world. Sure it would be nice to be able to settle everything over a beer and a handshake but the realities of the world are that there are people out there who simply do not want to even sit down at the table to have a discussion. You can't ignore them, they aren't going to go away, they can't be segregated (god forbid we curtail their rights while they are trying to do the same to others), so it comes to someone with a bigger stick showing up to whack them with it. Do people die? Sure they do. Do the victors celebrate? Of course.

Do the videos make it seem a bit cold and impersonal (ardeegee, this is for you as well), sure, and you know what, that is the intent of the technology. The entire point of the advances in arms is to be able to do the most damage to the enemy while exposing yourself to as little as possible in return. If that makes it look like video game to you then I suggest you join the military and do what they do, even in training it is anything but easy. I was grunt on the ground and had a dozen things to keep track of - I can only imagine the number of things going on for a pilot. The fact that they can sound casual and joke is an indication of their professionalism and experience. The fact that they are happy when it is all over is an indication that they are pleased that at no point did their helicopter malfunction and crash, no one shot them out of the sky with a rifle, RPG, or missile, none of their fellow service men and women were put in danger, and a potential threat was removed.

There is every chance that when all was said and done and they found out that a mistake had been made, that they felt very badly about it. The problem is that no one will ever tell that story, it is much better to drag them through the mud and put all sorts of thoughts into their heads. You know what though, you weren't there, you don't know what they were thinking, and unless you join the service or do something comparable you never will. So please stop insulting the best efforts of the men and women who have chosen a particular line of work that very few others can or are willing to take up.

[Moejoe]

You are an apologist for murderers, liars and thieves. You are one of the reasons I no longer want to be part of this community, you and the ideas you espouse without any sense of irony or basic humanity are what infuses this world with the dull horrors that are now coming to light. I have no words for you, because I don't think you'd listen, or hear, or if you did listen and hear, be able to understand. I actually think you might be a sociopath or have some form of mental illness to actually believe what you have just written.


Again, I ask for the third effin time in less than a day. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE DELETE MY ACCOUNT ON THIS SITE. PRETTY PLEASE. WITH CHERRIES ON TOP. (Leaving this place is harder than getting out of the Mafia, or Facebook.)

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by dsvick

So please stop insulting the best efforts of the men and women who have chosen a particular line of work that very few others can or are willing to take up.

1.) It is a very tired old concept that you aren't allowed to share an opinion on an area unless you are in that field-- usually trotted out by those who don't like your opinion on that area.

2.) When someone joins the military, they have made the explicit choice of signing up to be cannon fodder (expect for those dumb enough to believe the "be all that you can be" propaganda that it is all just a fun way to get a college scholarship.) The civilian population of a country, though, are simply trying to survive in their homes, plunged into the middle of a war that they usually didn't ask for or want-- it is governments fighting governments, and the regular people are the victims. So when given the choice between the deaths of innocent bystanders and the deaths of soldiers, I prefer the deaths of soldiers. If it takes more soldiers dying to better prevent "collateral damage", I think that is a high price to pay, but a fair one-- that is what they signed up for.

[HarryT]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Personal insults are inappropriate, no matter how strongly you may feel about an issue. Please discuss matters in a polite and civilized manner.

Thank you.

[Moderator]

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Ladies and gentlemen,

Personal insults are inappropriate, no matter how strongly you may feel about an issue. Please discuss matters in a polite and civilized manner.

Thank you.

[Moderator]

No. There is no civility when innocent people are killed. No polite way in which murderers and apologists can be addressed.

Come on Harry, ban me. I know you've wanted me gone ever since I called you out on your support of torture. So come on, do me a favour and put me out of this site's misery.

[dsvick]

ardeegee

You have every right to share your opinion, all I was asking was that you not insult others while doing it. In your last post you say "When someone joins the military, they have made the explicit choice of signing up to be cannon fodder" - that's your opinion and you are more than welcome to it, we can have a nice civil debate over it. What do you like to drink?

Your next line... "expect for those dumb enough to believe the "be all that you can be" propaganda that it is all just a fun way to get a college scholarship" it insulting to a large number of people who made the decision to join the military because they felt a duty to do so, or that they wanted to give something back, or for any number or reasons other than stupidity and greed. Sure there are people that did it for just that reason, but I'd be willing to be that the majority did not.

If it takes more soldiers dying to better prevent "collateral damage", I think that is a high price to pay, but a fair one-- that is what they signed up for.

No, that is not what they signed up for. They signed up, most of them, to do something for their country they thought was worth doing. What will prevent collateral damage is more training and better equipment and technology. Training can done almost anytime, anywhere - you should see some of the ideas they come up with in the most unlikely places - but will never be a substitute for the real thing. Technology is improving all the time, in fact, just a few years ago it would have been a 500 pound bomb used on those people and the collateral damage would have been horrendous. The problem with that is that no matter how sophisticated the technology it ultimately comes down to the people using it and them making a decision based on the situation, their own knowledge and experience, and what the technology is telling them.

And then when you add all that together there are still the rules of engagement, which can be quite convoluted but are there for the express purpose of preventing as much of that as possible. Without the ROI it will all come down to the kid behind the rifle, who I can assure you will almost always decide "better them than me and my friends". Cannon fodder!? hardly, but that is your opinion and we can discuss it.

By the way "Be all you can be" was the Army, I was one of the few and the proud, so you can talk bad about Army... (just kidding everyone who was in the Army, go ahead you can call me a jarhead...)

[Patricia]

We're closing this thread because it has (as predicted) become heated.