05-05-2012, 11:24 AM | #136 |
Wizard
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This article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...804387216.html by Lev Grossman looks at reasons why at least some people are abandoning "lit fic" and reading more YA: modern novels are boring. YA has strong plots, strong characters - it's not boring. |
05-05-2012, 11:50 AM | #137 | |
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05-05-2012, 12:02 PM | #138 | ||
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Good article. Deserves a thread all its own (with no NYT baggage). Signature quote: Quote:
Last edited by fjtorres; 05-05-2012 at 12:08 PM. |
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05-05-2012, 12:04 PM | #139 |
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ok, I'll start a new thread - there are some other posts I'd like people's comments on, on whither SF (anyone else here read Making Light?)
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05-05-2012, 01:24 PM | #140 | |
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Biased? Hmmm... Here's a true tale. (anybody can look it up.) In 1983, the price of oil peaked and dropped sharply. The result was a collapse of the economies of the "oil patch" (Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana). In Texas, 9 out of the top 10 banks were allowed to fail. Houston, Texas, was the largest city in the area. Its population shrank by 20% in 2 years, and the remaining population had 20% unemployment. The term "jingle mail" was invented in Houston, 1985. The response from the New York media? It was good because lower energy price helped hold down inflation in other places in the US....(I was a begining programmer for the only surviving bank in 1980-1989) Flash forward to 2007. The residential real estate market collapses. This time is the "money center" banks (mostly New York City banks) on ground zero. Were 9 out 10 of them allowed to collapse? Did New York City's population shrink by 20% and still have 20% unemployment? I don't THIIINK so. THEY got bailed out, (except for the one obligatory Investment Bank who got shot, just like 1974, 1980, 1982, 1990, and 1997). Who is PAYING for the bailout? Those very same suckers who got hammered by the "Oil Patch" collapse in the 1980's. But we know, we're all ignorant and biased... |
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05-05-2012, 05:05 PM | #141 |
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05-06-2012, 01:37 AM | #142 | |
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Progressives think the NY Times is too centrist, conservatives think it is the anti-christ, the truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between. I happen to like the NYT, living overseas and having lived in the NY/NJ area for decades, it is a valuable site for me to find out whats going on back "home". PS - I appreciate the mini-reviews, honestly. I was in a book store here just the other day and they had the Hunger Games trilogy on sale, in Dutch. The store clerk saw me checking it out and recommended it. When I told her I was interested in them because I thought it might be an easy way to improve my Dutch she looked at me like I was crazy. She said they were just as complex as most "mature" novels, which peaked my interest. She then recommended the comix section for me... |
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05-06-2012, 06:05 AM | #143 | |||
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You're telling us about the behavior of a small group of crooks in the banking and finance industries and equating them with all New Yorkers (including journalists). This is the veritable exception to Godwin's Law because you're actually talking about New Yorkers in the same way that people talk about Jewish New Yorkers, who are thought by anti-Semites to dominate the those industries. This isn't a New York issue, it's an issue with deregulation and neoliberalism (in the Chicago School of Economics sense, not in the sense of political liberalism). The same people who've screwed the citizens of Texas have done so to the citizens of New York. This is the hub of the financial empire and the empire is corrupt. Ask Canadian citizens if they have these banking issues in their supposedly socialist country (which of course it isn't in the accurate sense). If I wanted to be unfair, I could blame all Southerners for voting in the sorts of politicians that ushered in an age of deregulation that made these examples of corporate kleptomania possible. But then, of course, I'd be painting people in other states with the same broad brush with which you've continually painted all New Yorkers. Don't blame all New York voters and journalists for removing the restrictions that led to those events. Blame the two economists who decided that CEOs would behave more responsibly if they were made major shareholders of their companies (see below). You'll get no argument from me that real estate, banking and the stock market service industries are corrupt, and that the lawyers involved had a lot to do with the present situation. But it's pointlessly divisive to blame the entire population of a city for the crimes of individuals. This is the same argument one sometimes has with British citizens over the responsibility of all Americans for the government we now have and all crimes associated with the empire (going as far back as the Ajax initiative). Besides which, by dividing voters and potential activists into Lilliputian territories, you derail a possible consensus between all of us that could result in actual change. And that's exactly how the powers that have made you angry want this to end. (Here's the pertinent link) Here's the pertinent bit (but don't go hating everyone in Chicago once you digest it!): Quote:
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Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 05-06-2012 at 09:49 PM. |
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05-06-2012, 06:39 AM | #144 |
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05-06-2012, 07:44 PM | #145 | |
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I even notice that the sci-fi they push isn't good. I can't even remember the sci-fi one they were pushing. The authors name was "koon" or something like that. |
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05-06-2012, 09:15 PM | #146 | |
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Here's my position: 1. The NYT is usually as good as or better than the majority of other newspapers in terms of the quality of the writing alone, and a list of past contributors and awards bears that out. Additionally, its readership disproves the idea the paper is only relevant to New Yorkers. 2. But that does not make it innocent or its reporting unbiased. Nearly all American newspapers are corrupt to the degree to which there are conflicts of interest. That is not an anti-NYT position. It is a criticism of the American news media in general. Politically, the NYT is not liberal in terms of being an extension of the views of the publishers (who happen to be conservative). It is liberal to the extent that certain individual writers and editors are liberal. The fact that the undistorted right (not shrill provocateurs) and the true left (actual Marxists, socialists and independents, not liberal democrats closer to the center) attack the NYT is exactly on-point. The undistorted right and actual left should call out the NYT on inaccuracies and omissions, just as everyone should raise legitimate questions about accuracy in any newspaper. The journalist-driven media watch group called FAIR does an excellent job of that. But that's not the same as making sweeping statements about New York, New Yorkers, every writer who has ever contributed to the NYT and anyone who enjoys reading it. It is also not the same as trashing every aspect of the NYT because you disagree with the politics of some of its contributors or the actions of New-York-based CEOs in three of our services industries. Neither of those attacks is sincerely focused on quality or truth. Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 05-06-2012 at 09:47 PM. |
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05-06-2012, 10:13 PM | #147 | ||
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05-07-2012, 02:47 AM | #148 | |
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The name is Koontz. |
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05-07-2012, 04:27 AM | #149 |
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Moderator Notice
This thread seems to have moved close to being labeled a Political thread and risks being closed. If members wish to comment on any of the posts containing political topics, please start a thread in P&R and DO NOT continue it in this thread. Thank you. |
05-07-2012, 08:29 AM | #150 | ||
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Even if the Walter Goodman's claims reflected the truth (and I would dispute his claims point by point were we not just warned to avoid politics), they would not be as important as Goodman's being called upon to defend the veracity of his story, which every reporter should be ready to do. What is important is the accuracy of FAIR's findings and corrections, and whether their record reflects this overall, not how many hyperbolic accusations Goodman can make in the midst of his otherwise reasonable points. Among the journalists involved in FAIR, you'll find award-winners like Nat Hentoff and Alexander Cockburn, both of whom wrote for the Village Voice for decades. You'll also find FAIR's forum, Counter-Spin (partially run by Cockburn), to be a place full of news stories and editorials that have not gained a wider audience because they don't fit in with anyone's agenda. Even I don't agree with most of it, but I do appreciate being apprised of the different conclusions to which reporters and professionals in various fields have come and which have not been heard. Quote:
Also: FAIR are not a "special interest group." They are not any political organization's think tank, nor are they sponsored or funded by any company or political organization requiring them to support opinions which will result in profits or profit-helpful legislation. Like the NYT, their conclusions are based on the findings of individual reporters rather than people who are told to support a list of findings -- a fact which the NYT reporter has either omitted or failed to notice. But to be fair to the reporter being analyzed by FAIR, I'd have to read the original article and response to get a better sense of whom to believe in that particular case. And I'm sure that FAIR has their own response to the article in which they address his claims of bias with facts like the skeptical journalists that most of them are. But to explore that area would be to entertain a subject that has now been forbidden. Besides which, we are now two steps away from the original topic. I think we can agree that the NYT and New Yorkers in general should not be trashed for biased or unstated reasons in a thread about an article about YAB. That is uncalled for and the motivation is transparent. But then again, some of those who now complain about being taken off-topic should not have insulted The New York Times or New Yorkers in the first place. We can take the rest of this discussion to the P&R forum, if you like. Send me a PM and I'll meet you there. Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 05-07-2012 at 10:02 AM. |
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