Why I'm not going to buy eDGe... at least in Europe... (a few words about pricing)

Originally Posted by borisb

There may be a wealthy few who will buy it at that premium just because the eDGe is a fantastic device, but I really can't see students - which is the target market - going for that expense. And I can't see enTourage trying to "jack up" the price out of greed. Every company (except Apple, which can charge 100-200% markup just because their sheep will buy, unquestioningly, anything prefixed with "i"!) charges the least amount they can while meeting their own cost and basic profit requirements. So the euro price is the unpleasant reality of enTourage's current situation.

Another thing to consider is the size of the US and Canadian markets, though. For this small startup's target demographic, that's tens of millions of students and non-students (like me), they can tap into right here at home. When they have a clearly visible number of students in every campus using an eDGe, they'll be a runaway success already. Europe and Asia will then just be icing on the cake.

I do understand, I do agree, I do see. Economy rules, whether we like it or not. Still, we're supposed to be a global village, so when purchasing electronics in order to buy more of non-paper publications, it should be relatively easy irrespective of the continent. Unfortunately it isn't so.

I am also aware of the fact that USA & Canada are such a huge market that entourage may not be interested in the rest of the world (yet). Still - it's probably the most common word in my posts - I would like to be able to buy eDGe without double shipping via USA, without legal issues over US warranty in Europe, and such.

I also hate it when e-books or applications or even electronics are market 'USA & Canada only.' Is my cash any worse than yours? Don't they (=anyone like Apple, not precisely entourage) want to make some profit and take some $$ from me?

So I do understand. But I also want to prod entourage to find some easy even if temporary solutions to introduce eDGe worldwide. And not only me, myself, and I

eDGe is already available in some online European shops, even though the price is ridiculous...
E-books from entourage store won't be limited to USA & Canada after September or so I was told.

We'll see what esle can be done just buy discussing the logistics and organisation of bits and pieces.

Originally Posted by borisb

But all this doesn't help you, does it? But take heart - there are a number of forum members who have bought their eDGe through the US and seem happy, and have even managed to do exchanges via a third party in the US. I don't see anything legally or morally wrong with going this route for something as worthy as an eDGe.

Well, yes and no... This doesn't help me much. I'm an academic teacher and if/when I'm going to buy eDGe it will be for my work, not just fun. I must be sure that I can use eDGe to it's full potential and that no limitations will be stopping me from upgrading or reparing my eDGe. I don't want to send it across Atlantic every time a screw gets loose...

I must be sure from the very beginning that I can buy e-books, especially those considered to be classics, and those connected to humanities, journals, newspapers, etc. From Europe, from Poland, without limitations like "Territories Allowed: USA & Canada."

And one more thing. I really don't need any European distributors for that. I have already bought electronics (and not only) from USA and China before. Everything legally and everything "normally". I also payed VAT & custom taxes on my own. So it can be done. This way it's much cheaper as I pay just for one shipping (from China I actually usually find "free delivery" whenever I can see it). I also go around the middlemen, who obviously want and need to earn their share. I prefer to buy directly from the producer (entourage in USA/Canada) and have it shipped directly from the manufacturer (probably China). Cheaper & easier for me, more ebooks available, so I'm more likely to buy eDGe, so more worldwide orders, so more cash for entourage, so lower prices in the end and more development of eDGe.

Originally Posted by andrebacher

huge prices! Can't we find them somewhere else for a lower price?

Yes, you can. Have it shipped by a friend from America... This means double posting and still is expensive, but it's going to be cheaper than buying it in Europe.

The only hope/answer is to wait another month or two and check if 1) European prices drop, 1A) competition will make European retailers drop the price, or 2) entourage US store will become available for Europe/world.

Originally Posted by andrebacher

huge prices! Can't we find them somewhere else for a lower price?

I know a netbook is not comparable to eDGe, but... Just to show & discuss prices and options.
The cheapest netbook I can find in Poland, already with the modern N450 CPU & architecture (despite it's flows) costs $264!! The cheapst N450 ASUS netbook is available from #320!! So 2.5 times less than eDGe. A decent e-book reader can be bought for $150-200, so if netbook + e-reader is to substitute eDGe, the price will be only $420-570!!
Just to remind you, in Europe eDGe costs $765.
Netbooks and e-readers can be bought anywhere and will be serviced locally, so there is no shippment costs, eDGe will add international posting every time...
Trifles, but that's why we're talking about a $200-400 difference between netbook + e-reader vs eDGe. That's a gap that most European buyers won't decide to cross.

And one more thing, both the netbook and the e-reader 1) will last longer on batteries, 2) will be lighter, and 3) netbook will do more than eDGe, though without eDGe's E-Ink functionality.

I wouldn't expect much (if any) movement on the price. According to enTourage's website, they're "out of stock" on the Midnight Blue models, which suggests that they're meeting or possibly even exceeding their sales targets (or they miscalculated how many people would be willing to pay $40 for a different color--probably some combination thereof). My gut is that the $500 price point seems appropriate for the US market based on that's about what it costs for a high-end netbook; in addition, I doubt that they have very fat margins, so there's a limit to how much they can lower the price.

As I've explained in detail, the factors that make the eDGe more expensive overseas are largely beyond enTourage's control and no one is disputing that it's currently not a good value. I think Boris is right that they only sought European distribution after prospective customers requested it; at this point in time, establishing a presence in Europe (particularly Central and Eastern Europe, based on the schedule of conventions that they're displaying it) doesn't appear to be a priority. But comparing it to a netbook really isn't appropriate: the cost of the components that the eDGe has (particularly the touchscreen LCD and the eInk) are far greater than a non-touchscreen LCD and a physical keyboard (as well as the few other components that the netbook might also have that the eDGe doesn't, like a VGA or RJ-45 port).

As for eBook restrictions, that's a result of how the global publishing industry is organized and is completely outside the control of enTourage (or even a company as large as Amazon, for that matter). It's an artifact of what made sense for the publishing industry prior to the emergence of ebooks, but since most publishing is still controlled by a handful of major publishers with individual interests that are not necessarily aligned with consolidation, it's unlikely to change in the immediate future.

The reason Nobles sell their device so cheap USD149 is because they do not care about profit on the unit but content only. Edge does not have powers to negotiate cheap prices on books like amazon or nobles, so they do not make any real money on content but only on hardware, which is not very good in today's business model.

Originally Posted by Melkor

I know a netbook is not comparable to eDGe, but... Just to show & discuss prices and options.
The cheapest netbook I can find in Poland, already with the modern N450 CPU & architecture (despite it's flows) costs $264!! The cheapst N450 ASUS netbook is available from #320!! So 2.5 times less than eDGe. A decent e-book reader can be bought for $150-200, so if netbook + e-reader is to substitute eDGe, the price will be only $420-570!!
Just to remind you, in Europe eDGe costs $765.
Netbooks and e-readers can be bought anywhere and will be serviced locally, so there is no shippment costs, eDGe will add international posting every time...
Trifles, but that's why we're talking about a $200-400 difference between netbook + e-reader vs eDGe. That's a gap that most European buyers won't decide to cross.

And one more thing, both the netbook and the e-reader 1) will last longer on batteries, 2) will be lighter, and 3) netbook will do more than eDGe, though without eDGe's E-Ink functionality.

There is a fly in this ointment.......You can't get a 9.7" eink reader that you can write on for less than $400.......unless I am very mistaken?

Originally Posted by jonnickell

There is a fly in this ointment.......You can't get a 9.7" eink reader that you can write on for less than $400.......unless I am very mistaken?

As I said before, I know the comparison between netbook (& e-reader) vs eDGe isn't going to be accurate/appropriate. But the point is not in comparing devices but prices. If I'm not going to buy eDGe due to it's high price, what else would I do, and how much would that cost?

That's the question I was posing. And exactly for this reason I wouldn't be buying a 9.7" e-ink reader for $400 when I can live with a smaller one and equally efficient for much less.

Any comparison of actual devices has to be inherently mistaken as no other device has eDGe capabilities. Still, as a customer I will buy eDGe or I will not. I will buy something else, or not. I will spend more money, or not. And here is the main point. When buying somehting else, sacrificing eDGe functionality, the price tag is 20-50% lower.

Now, what can we do to 1) help entourage lower the price or/and 2) lower the price ourselves.

One answer to 2) is buy eDGe in USA and have it shipped to Europe. This is already working.

Another to 2) is buy eDGe for a company. This way you can get back VAT instantly (19%) and income tax which takes a bit longer (also around 19%). But this works only when you have a company or a friendly friend with a company who cherishes your friendship and will (illegally) buy eDGe for you

But what else?

Originally Posted by walt526

... As I've explained in detail, the factors that make the eDGe more expensive overseas are largely beyond enTourage's control and no one is disputing that it's currently not a good value. I think Boris is right that they only sought European distribution after prospective customers requested it; ...

As you said and explained in detail - many thanks for that - most of the Europan price of eDGe is beyond entourage. But there are some solutions to get around this problem. If the US entourage store sold to Europe as well... If the shipment was done directly from China... If entourage sold eDGe tax-free and let European customers handle taxes on our own...

I think....as others have posted in other words....that once Europe sales hit critical mass the price will go down. It has always been the case that the risk takers on anything new and untried pay the highest price and many times lose the most when the product fails. But my gut feeling from following this forum and seeing how many people there are from other countries willing to take the big risk.......Entourage is going to be greatly successfull. So you can either jump on and take the risk or sit back and watch......that's the only choices I see......I don't think Entourage has quite sold enough to be all things to all people.....yet........but soon....!!!

Originally Posted by walt526

... As for eBook restrictions, that's a result of how the global publishing industry is organized and is completely outside the control of enTourage (or even a company as large as Amazon, for that matter). It's an artifact of what made sense for the publishing industry prior to the emergence of ebooks, but since most publishing is still controlled by a handful of major publishers with individual interests that are not necessarily aligned with consolidation, it's unlikely to change in the immediate future.

This is something that worries me much more. It is nothing more but William Gibson's future - we're ruled by corporations and can't stand against them. I can only hope that there is a foreseeable solution to this matter, namely, most ebooks on the market will finally be tagged 'worldwide' rather than 'US & Canada.' And probably the illigal way, buying ebooks using false US address, "rigged" PayPal accounts, or simply (just as so many people do with electronics) have a friend buy it for you in the USA and send it to Europe.

Originally Posted by jonnickell

I think....as others have posted in other words....that once Europe sales hit critical mass the price will go down. ... So you can either jump on and take the risk or sit back and watch......that's the only choices I see...

Well, yes. But I expect many people to be in my situation: when I buy something else this year - and I need to have something for my work and leisure - I won't be able to buy another device, e.g., eDGe, next year. Simply, all of that buying is a bit too much. I can buy once every few years. So if not now than probably not in 2-3 years... That's why I'm moaning so much.

Originally Posted by Melkor

Any comparison of actual devices has to be inherently mistaken as no other device has eDGe capabilities. Still, as a customer I will buy eDGe or I will not. I will buy something else, or not. I will spend more money, or not. And here is the main point. When buying somehting else, sacrificing eDGe functionality, the price tag is 20-50% lower.

I don't think that you're making a coherent argument... or at least not one that is consistent with basic microeconomic theory. If the eDGe has a unique combination of features (as you assert), then it should be priced above a less capable device.

I don't go into a BMW dealership and expect to pay the same price for a 300 series sedan as I would a Honda Civic. Or perhaps a better example, I wouldn't go into a Toyota dealership and expect to be able to buy a Prius for the cost of a (nonhybrid) Honda Civic even though the performance is similar. Both cars may be similar in terms of performance and safety rating, but because the Prius is a hybrid it's ~50% more expensive. Likewise, everyday I pay a premium for better cuts of meat, fresh produce rather than frozen, etc. The idea that goods can have a range of utility is precisely why "better" goods are more expensive than less desirable goods. That's how a modern and open economy functions.

You'd like to buy an eDGe for the cost of a netbook. I understand that. ****, I want a BMW for the cost of a Honda. Or mansion on a Southern California beach for the cost of a condo in the Midwest. Or a bottle of Opus 2005 for the cost of Rockbrock Cellars 2008. And so forth. But that's not how economics works... if you want to buy something better, then you pay more.

Originally Posted by walt526

... You'd like to buy an eDGe for the cost of a netbook. I understand that. ****, I want a BMW for the cost of a Honda. Or mansion on a Southern California beach for the cost of a condo in the Midwest. Or a bottle of Opus 2005 for the cost of Rockbrock Cellars 2008. And so forth. But that's not how economics works... if you want to buy something better, then you pay more.

Well I wouldn't like to buy eDGe for the cost of a netbook, but as I showed it is possible to buy a netbook & e-reader for half the European price of eDGe. The European price is a major factor here.

And don't compare eDGe to BMW or mansions. It's as inaccurate as my comparison of eDGe to netbooks. BMW is Apple or Amazon, entourage (no matter how much I like them) isn't even a Fiat. It's a Tata from India in this comparison. A totally new approach by an unknown company, with semi-funcitonal software, and quirky hardware. Still it's potential is so great that we all sit in front of our computers discussing eDGe. Not Tata...

And when I want something better I sometimes pay nothing in contrast to a lot. OpenOffice vs MS Office? Linux vs Windows?
New notebooks & netbooks are also much cheaper than those available a year or two ago.

So please don't take me for a village idiot who wants to get eDGe for free. I just don't like the European price (as most Europeans) but I do like eDGe (as a lot of Europeans probably would).

I just don't like the European price (as most Europeans) but I do like eDGe (as a lot of Europeans probably would).

I have to second Melkor on that.

Students or people considering the device for private use really have only the economical option to get an eDGe in the US and have it brought over by a friend, or try to get a used one from an us-user. (Forwarding etc. costs nearly as much as buying the device here.) And then they run the risc of warranty issues. So the option for them really is not to buy and see if something else (like the coming pocketbook 901 with "only" an eInk screen but annotation function or the Kindle DX or an "old" irex (company is under liqudators orders but not fully dead yet)) suits them.

I did order an eDGe from the importer in the netherlands (hoping to receive it next week ) but only because I am selfemployed and want to use it professionaly.

That there are sound economic reasons for them to price it like they do ... Well, we can understand that. No need to drive the discussion in circles here. But we don't have to like the reasons, do we?

So let's hope they put a foot in the door here and are successful in the US ...

Regards

pirx