Copyright is Out of Sight

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I'm a fan of the modern gift economy. Take what you need, give what you can. What I, and many others need is access to all knowledge. What we are prepared to give is everything.

Hey, I need some free work done on my car -- when are you prepared to come over and give me the gift of everything?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I'm a fan of the modern gift economy. Take what you need, give what you can. What I, and many others need is access to all knowledge. What we are prepared to give is everything.

What do you do for a living?

[Fbone]

That is the most creative reason to pirate I've heard. Survival of earth and the human species.

Funny thing is ... forum members tell me the best pirate sites are private, password protected and require a personal invitation. For me that is a stronger barrier than walking into the library.

[wyndslash]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Funny thing is ... forum members tell me the best pirate sites are private, password protected and require a personal invitation. For me that is a stronger barrier than walking into the library.

it's a pretty tight-knit club then

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by taustin

And, for what it's worth, yammering like yours is why publishers keep getting away with ever longer copyright terms and stricters laws to enforce them.

No, they get those because they lobby and pay politicians to make it happen. In the UK, our version of the RIAA had a clause inserted into recent law that basically said anyone accused of illegal downloading is guilty until they can prove otherwise. There will also be a fee to pay before you can attempt to prove your innocence. The excuse for that was that it would make it cheaper to implement the law, but the real reason is likely to be because the standard of evidence against downloaders would never stand up in court.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I disagree, since I believe we have yet to be left to our own devices. Garbage will be produced, but there is no reason why it should make it to the second layer, if the filter is in place.

I know that most knowledge filters in place today do not take into account everyone. Instead we are shown limited subsets of knowledge filtered by small groups. Library's are one example, where the librarian has traditionally been the filter, One person filtering for all.

We must all become each others librarians, and I believe that we are.

I have no doubt that you sincerely believe what you are saying. And it's possible that where you live, you have had knowledge filtered to your detriment. A more likely situation is that you, yourself, are filtering out the knowledge that you need.

Being kind I would say that you don't, yet, know what you need to know. No matter how fervently you feel about the subject. The premise that you've put forth shows your lack of understanding. Time may take care of that.

Another way of putting it, is that even if you know that it's possible to bench press 800 pounds you can't do it until you are prepared to do it. Knowing it is not the same as being able to do it.


And I know that most knowledge filters in place today do not take into account everyone.? Death is the only thing that takes everyone into it's "account". Even under force, people are not homogeneous and of one thought.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

This isn't about the next year's profits for some random company, this is about the future of the planet and those who will choose to inhabit it. This is about stopping the endless cycle of destruction that we have thrust upon ourselves by refusing to recognize ourselves as integral parts of the whole.

No.

This is about individuals trying to earn a living, because no one is giving them a free lunch. Many people create because it can earn them a living, or supplement their living. Copyright was designed to prevent others from stealing that creation, to guarantee the creator could earn a reasonable amount from his creation... and then, after a reasonable amount of time, to release that creation to the public, free for anyone.

DRM is a security device designed to prevent copywritten property from being taken and resold/given away against the creator's wishes and established copyright law.

These are the creations of a society that agrees that it is not right to give one person an unfair advantage over another, and it is not right to take another person's property against their wishes. A society can only function properly on top of a foundation of agreements that benefit the society overall. Anyone who is a functioning part of society should understand these precepts, and anyone who opposes them has condemned society in favor of the needs of the individual... ie, they are selfish.

Selfishness is usually a sign that you do not know or accept your place in a group or a society. Careful consideration of your true rights and responsibilities in a group or society, therefore, is required so as to understand what you in fact deserve from that group or society, and what actions are appropriate to obtain that which you deserve.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Selfishness is usually a sign that you do not know or accept your place in a group or a society. Careful consideration of your true rights and responsibilities in a group or society, therefore, is required so as to understand what you in fact deserve from that group or society, and what actions are appropriate to obtain that which you deserve.

People usually grow out of the attitude that "I have a right to get anything I want for free" when they start having to make a living for themselves. In my experience, it's a predominantly teenage thing.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

People usually grow out of the attitude that "I have a right to get anything I want for free" when they start having to make a living for themselves. In my experience, it's a predominantly teenage thing.

Kids my age were largely past that when we hit our teens. Doing chores for a weekly wage (as opposed to being given an allowance) helps that along. Having a healthy family unit helps, too.

Giggleton, I don't believe you answered Harry's question: Just what do you do for a living?

[Kali Yuga]

Y'know, if I didn't know any better, it looks like some people on MR are actually defending copyright. Did anyone else notice hell freezing over a few minutes ago?

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Yes, copyright law has been around for 500 years, a fraction of the time that the written word has been here.

...and it's also the overwhelming majority of time that mass production of texts has been possible.

But more importantly -- so what? Modern constitutional / representative democracy has existed for about 300 years, which is a tiny fraction of humanity's existence. That short duration has no effect on its validity as a system of government.

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Copyright, especially in its present form is by no means the be all end all solution to copying. In fact in its current incarnation in the United States, and other nations, copyright is directly hindering the dissemination of knowledge, i.e. the public good.

Oh? Both China and Russia have lax attitudes towards copyright and trademark enforcement; in fact they're perfectly happy to ignore it. Yet they also have a stranglehold on public information and routinely suppress free speech. Care to explain that correlation?

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Those who wish to lock the word behind barriers, technological or otherwise are the criminals. Every word has the potential to change the world, Any word anywhere can instill hope in the reader for a better way of being....

Your optimism, while laudable, is also unjustified. Many books -- too many to name here -- are instruments of hate, bigotry, propaganda and mass violence.

Your prophesies of doom are also a bit overboard, considering that many of the works which promoted freedom of expression and representative governments, as well as countless cultural and technological innovations, happened during eras when copyright laws were on the books.

I for one do not predict doom if people became more open and less commercial in their treatment of IP. However the simple fact is that current copyright laws specifically allow and protect exactly those types of non-commercial uses -- e.g. I can easily copyright a book, and allow others to contribute to it, and create derivative works, while requiring it not be used for any commercial purpose.

If in fact that type of content creation does offer a substantial benefit over commercial approaches, then it will likely flourish and propagate. More likely is that the two approaches will merely co-exist, and serve different groups and/or societies. But there is no moral imperative to abandon the existing structures.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Copyright was designed to prevent others from stealing that creation, to guarantee the creator could earn a reasonable amount from his creation...

This is on a pro-piracy website, and is written by someone from the Pirate Party in Sweden, so obviously it's a bit biased but if you read between the lines there is some interesting facts in there.

http://torrentfreak.com/nothing-new-...ed-sun-110218/

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Your optimism, while laudable, is also unjustified. Many books -- too many to name here -- are instruments of hate, bigotry, propaganda and mass violence.

I may not agree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Once we end copyright once and for all, and to be sure all that is needed to end it is the acceptance by enough people that it is simply over, we can begin to create the last library, the first library filtered by any who wishes to contribute. Sites like wikipedia and various others are good first steps, but they are hindered by in their mission by copyright.

I am upset by the fact that libraries are allowed to upload books onto our ereaders and then required to delete them a week later, because copyright law tells them to.

LIBRARIANS SHOULD KNOW BETTER,

yes that is a paraphrased quote from the LOTR movie, which instilled deep knowledge into me. We can never tell just what part of which text will help us in our journey, one of the reasons copyright should be swept away.

This idea is not some random thought that a few cranks spout at various times in various places around the internet, this is THE IDEA.

I hope to contribute to its acceptance in every way that I can, and I hope you will do the same.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Once we end copyright once and for all, and to be sure all that is needed to end it is the acceptance by enough people that it is simply over, we can begin to create the last library, the first library filtered by any who wishes to contribute. Sites like wikipedia and various others are good first steps, but they are hindered by in their mission by copyright.

You do realize that copyright is about more than books, yes? I haven't had anything I've written published in a long time (magazine articles), but I've done other things that are protected by copyright.

Know any web designers that get paid for their work? Freelance journalists? Ad writers? Photographers? Without some form of copyright protection, any kind of writer, photographer, designer, painter, CREATOR, loses the right to retain ownership and control over their creations. There's a hell of a lot more at stake here than "access to information".

Works-for-hire will no longer pay well, because the company who pays for those rights will no longer have exclusivity. Freelancers can no longer get paid because they no longer have any rights to sell off, and who's going to pay for content that their competitor can publish as soon as a copy is available?

In your brave new world, what industry will suddenly spring up to give good jobs to the millions of creators and support staff who can no longer put food on the table?

Generally when I hear "information and knowledge want/need to be free", it's really an excuse to not pay for things that are neither vital knowledge nor essential information. No child has ever grown up stupid or uninformed due to lack of a free copy of a James Patterson novel or a Britney Spears album. Many a child has, however, grown up with a twisted notion of value and a bloated sense of entitlement because no one taught them that we have to pay for the things we would like to have.

[wyndslash]

Originally Posted by CWatkinsNash

Generally when I hear "information and knowledge want/need to be free", it's really an excuse to not pay for things that are neither vital knowledge nor essential information. No child has ever grown up stupid or uninformed due to lack of a free copy of a James Patterson novel or a Britney Spears album. Many a child has, however, grown up with a twisted notion of value and a bloated sense of entitlement because no one taught them that we have to pay for the things we would like to have.

besides, putting out CREATIVE content is not easy, and i do think they are entitled to be able to claim the benefits of their own work. ideas are not easy to come by.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

This is on a pro-piracy website, and is written by someone from the Pirate Party in Sweden, so obviously it's a bit biased but if you read between the lines there is some interesting facts in there.

No interesting facts out in the open?