Scrivener - StoryMill - Storyist - WriteItNow 5

[Hitch]

Okey-dokey:

So, I downloaded and tried Writer's Blocks, and it would be hard for me to say just how underwhelmed I was. I think if someone uses index cards NOW, pasted up on, say, a wall or a corkboard, then this would be awesome, especially for outlining scenes. For those kinds of visual creatives, it's likely great for that sort of brainstorming, etc.

But, man...it doesn't do much else, IMHO. The blocks themselves have some neat features (for example, you can search for every block that has the word "blue" in it, and change the color of the block--say, to blue), but I can't imagine writing in the damned things, as an actual manuscript. That would drive me bonkers. (I'm sure someone will now pop up and say, "you don't write in them, you do that over there," and tell me about some functionality I missed.) I did take the tutorial. I did not read the entire PDF manual. But for me, it's a no-go.

Again, it has basically none of the awesome features that I love about YW5; no scene goal-conflict-outcome/reaction-dilemma-choice; I didn't see any timelining; I didn't notice anything particularly special for characters. Nor anything about locations, either. I think (again, not claiming I spent 5 hours with it; I spent about two) it's primarily a digital method of using what are effectively index cards, on a big "board," for brainstorming. That would be where I would see it fitting in with someone's writing methodologies.

I still haven't really done much with the other one, WIN5. There really is something about the interface that I find very off-putting. (And, for those of you that thought that YW5 is busy, oh, man, wait until you see this one!). Also, it's a teeny bit hard to judge, because in the demo version, you can't save anything, so it's hard to put it to a decent test. But my 45-minute impression is, nyah. Still doesn't have everything that YW5 has, although, of all the other programs, it has the MOST of what YW5 has.

One thing I've noticed--I think because it's not flashy, it's easy for people to underestimate just how powerful YWriter5 really IS. In assessing all these programs, I've been consistently surprised at seeing just how poorly they really stack up against it. No, it isn't all "pretty pretty" like Scrivener; but man, it does a hell of a lot more. (Yes, Scrivener can output to ePUB, and YW5 can't; but obviously, that's not functionality that matters to me at all. I can see how it would to others, but again, someone would be giving up a lot just to get that.)

So, at the moment, like a great white shark scouring the ocean for chow, I still haven't found THAT program. The "does everything" one. (In fairness: if the developers of LSB had put some more effort in, it actually COULD have been THAT program. It had character outlining and development that was not dissimilar to SNPro; it had myriad methods for outlining; you could have used the "index card approach" of Writer's Blocks, and you can do multi-level outlining in their Planners and Lists. BUT, it had some fatal flaws, not the least of which is, nobody's done bupkus with it in nearly 5 years now, and some of the functionality that you'd expect really wasn't "there" yet. Moreover, it output really funky RTF, and that is a definite failure. Oh, and of course, it had all the foofy crap--store music, pictures, set the background of your "writing board" to whatever color/image/yadda you want, etc.)

AND in fairness, if YW5 had the multi-level outlining that Scrivener has, I wouldn't be using Scrivener. I'm still not sure why I really tried it. As I said, in hindsight, I can do what it does, what I'm really using it for, in Word. What Word can't/doesn't do, quite like Scrivener, is let me use the outlining function with the ability to see the scene NOTES. That is the one thing that isn't quite there, for Word. (Arguably, I could use Word's outlining function, give each scene its title, and make the notes a subhead beneath it, but the tabular layout in Scrivener is easier to read. So, there's a point for it.)

Ergo, still at Snowflake Pro + Scrivener for outlining in 3 levels + YWriter5 for actually doing the writing work. Not the cheapest or simplest solution, but it's the most thorough, for someone like me. I freely admit, most creative folks probably don't want to be quite this OCD. :-) But I'm sort of obsessive about story structure, which I've always felt is the (mostly) unsung hero of successful storytelling. Using these tools helps me keep on track with that.

Offered FWIW.

Hitch

[Dr. Drib]

Both yWriter and WriteItNow 5 are messy and non-intuitive monkeys.

yWriter, due to its plethora of confusing clickable menus and old-sytle '90s-ish Windows commands, and windows that bring up other windows that bring up other choices and then duplicate other menus in other locations, etc.

WriteItNow 5 - which also has a plethora of windows-within-windows craziness, DOES, however, offer a number of interesting features. But it, too (having been ported over from the 'PC world'), has an old-style '90s-ish look with little itty-bitty buttons and indulges in the menu-craziness that yWriter shares.

Basically, these types of programs appeal to various ways the mind works when writing. None of them are bad, in my opinion. They just have different approaches to the same goal.

There must be a reason that Scrivener is the most popular program out of all the programs that are available.

However, for some people, Scrivener is overly complicated and also non-intuitive. Other people love this program. I don't love it, but I think it's a wonderful program. It's the program I go to for my writing

So, when we talk about these programs we are offering a subjective view of what works best for us.

My opinions, if there is any doubt, is stated in the paragraphs above.

Your opinions, if any member wishes to state them, can be conveniently posted below my post.

Isn't it wonderful how opinions can differ? And how no one gets mad?

That reminds me about what my Drill Sergeant once said to me: Oh, wait! I just realized this is a family-friendly site, and some of you may still be eating.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Both yWriter and WriteItNow 5 are messy and non-intuitive monkeys.

yWriter, due to its plethora of confusing clickable menus and old-sytle '90s-ish Windows commands, and windows that bring up other windows that bring up other choices and then duplicate other menus in other locations, etc.

Yeah...see, to me, that doesn't bother me, especially as a lot of the options that LOOK like they are repeated, aren't. As I mentioned....two posts ago?...for example, the "Characters" (as just one example) menu item at the top of the main screen and the Characters menu at the Chapter level and the Characters menu at the scene level all do different things. I kind of like that. But it's not for everyone, I guess. ;-)

WriteItNow 5 - which also has a plethora of windows-within-windows craziness, DOES, however, offer a number of interesting features. But it, too (having been ported over from the 'PC world'), has an old-style '90s-ish look with little itty-bitty buttons and indulges in the menu-craziness that yWriter shares.

Yea. Something about it was just too busy even for my OCD brain.

Basically, these types of programs appeal to various ways the mind works when writing. None of them are bad, in my opinion. They just have different approaches to the same goal.

There must be a reason that Scrivener is the most popular program out of all the programs that are available.

Honestly, I think it's because Scrivener is so damned simple. I mean, when you think about it, it's not a complex program, in the same ways as WIN5 or YW5. But, as I said somewhere in here--a lot of people aren't nearly as anal-retentive as I am about structure and other things that I track using YW. {shrug}. There's no right way or wrong way. Whatever gets you to story is what matters.

However, for some people, Scrivener is overly complicated and also non-intuitive. Other people love this program. I don't love it, but I think it's a wonderful program. It's the program I go to for my writing

See...while Scrivener has a big long tutorial/sample document, I don't think it's complicated at all. I mean...what's complicated? The big bang is the outline pane, on the left (whatever they call that), which heavily mimics Word's Document Map view. That's where you drag-drop files. And the "bottom," where they mimic a sub-directory/folder where you keep your freeform "stuff." I mean, to me, having a folder for "character sketches" in which you just put pages about Suzie that you TYPE is...not exciting.

I suppose it's arguable that some of the tagging options, maybe, could be complicated, but...I think that people like Scrivener just because it's so damn easy. And it's fairly attractive; I think that's what makes it very popular. (You can always tell when something was crafted for Mac first, can't you? The appearance of the thing is always glossier, no matter what the functionality.)

One of the things that became very apparent to me, after trying/using LSBXE, and reading what people had to say about it, was that glossy beat actual functionality, hands-down, every time. People were really attracted to LSB's pretty-pretty, how you could change the "writing desk" (background of the program), and all that. The fact that it was a fairly cumbersome program to use, and that things that you'd THINK would happen, in any rational sense, never did--that was less important. (For example, and this used to drive me insane--it had a "storyboarding function." You could type your scenes in, load an image if you had it, or a storyboard, yadda. And you could drag-drop them around. BUT, here's the thing--if you had chapters associated with those scenes--in other words, if you had text files that went with those scenes--when you were done rearranging them, the program itself did NOTHING. It didn't rearrange the scenes in the new order. You still had to open up the Planner/Outliner, and manually rearrange the scenes in the same order you just rearranged them in the Storyboarding function, even THOUGH the scenes were all identified. I couldn't figure out what the HELL the developer thought the point was. In case I wasn't clear--it would be like using Scrivener's Corkboard function, dragging/dropping the index cards around, and then having to do it AGAIN in the document pane on the left-hand side. Utterly idiotic.) I even asked about it, to be sure I hadn't simply missed the "how to," but no...that was the way it was developed. Beats the hell out of me. But it was glossy and very "important-looking" as a writer's program.

So, when we talk about these programs we are offering a subjective view of what works best for us.

My opinions, if there is any doubt, is stated in the paragraphs above.

Your opinions, if any member wishes to state them, can be conveniently posted below my post.

Isn't it wonderful how opinions can differ? And how no one gets mad?

That reminds me about what my Drill Sergeant once said to me: Oh, wait! I just realized this is a family-friendly site, and some of you may still be eating.

Yeah. Well, who could possibly get MAD about that? I mean, they're just opinions, and half the reason people are contributing to this thread is to offer their opinions about various writer's programs for other people who are looking. (As MY old Drill Sergeant said, "drop and give me 50!" or, "Smoke 'em if you got 'em!," but that was a different time. )

Come on, surely, somebody ELSE around here tried all these programs? Sheesh!!!

Hitch

[Dr. Drib]

Hey, Hitch:

I agree with everything you said in the above post.

I think I, too may be a bit OCD. I spend a lot time trying out new programs (when there's a demo) to see if I like it.

Are you familiar with the old Dramatica Pro? Well, the software publisher released (2012) a new version, but only for the Mac. It's called this:

Dramatica Story Expert 5

It's a very involved program and requires a LOT of time to manage and master, which I may decide is something I can't afford to indulge in. The interface (the 'prettification') between the PC and Mac version is dramatic. (No pun intended.)

On the other, being a collector of software (!!), I may buy it and play with it at my leisure. It's priced between $120 - $180, depending on how closely you look for the best price.

Another software product - one that has been abandoned and is only available on the PC - is

Power Structure [version 1.9.1]

I really like this program. I only have a demo of it, a demo that runs forever but will only allow 20 plot points. Since I have an area of my Mac set aside as a virtual PC, this is no problem. This program is about $100.

Check that one out, if you have the time, and tell me what you think.


Cheers.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Hey, Hitch:

I agree with everything you said in the above post.

I think I, too may be a bit OCD. I spend a lot time trying out new programs (when there's a demo) to see if I like it.

Are you familiar with the old Dramatica Pro? Well, the software publisher released (2012) a new version, but only for the Mac. It's called this:

Dramatica Story Expert 5

It's a very involved program and requires a LOT of time to manage and master, which I may decide is something I can't afford to indulge in. The interface (the 'prettification') between the PC and Mac version is dramatic. (No pun intended.)

So, there's an older, not-updated PC version, and a 2012 update, but for Mac only? Nyah...

On the other, being a collector of software (!!), I may buy it and play with it at my leisure. It's priced between $120 - $180, depending on how closely you look for the best price.

For nearly $200 buckeroos, it should wash my dishes, too. I mean, lord knows, I've spent money--LOTS of money--on software. I'm a bad collector of software, too (and have too many programs I've bought and then haven't used), but...I'd like to think that it still has signs of life before I'd invest in it. Also, even though I have a Mac on my desk, I don't like them and I only use it when we have a client that just cannot figure out how to get us a file, or download, etc., from a Mac. I'm just not a Mac-brained person. I'm very heavily left-brained, and that seems to interfere with Mac-ism. (Also interferes with the creative juices, but...can't have everything.)

Another software product - one that has been abandoned and is only available on the PC - is

Power Structure [version 1.9.1]

I really like this program. I only have a demo of it, a demo that runs forever but will only allow 20 plot points. Since I have an area of my Mac set aside as a virtual PC, this is no problem. This program is about $100.

Check that one out, if you have the time, and tell me what you think.


Cheers.

That always slays me--it's like LSBXE--"we've abandoned it, but hey, you can still BUY it for..." I mean, hell, if something has been abandoned, it ought to be bloody free. BUT, you said it's only a $100, and you really like it? What do you like about it? (Just what I need...another writing program, LOL...)

ETA: Oh, yeah, baby. That's what I'm talking 'bout. I admit it--that program looks AWESOME. Is it as good as it looks, Doc Drib?

Hitch

[Hitch]

Updated to add:

The link to get the demo no longer works. The site says it's copyrighted as of 2015, but there's no way to contact them or get the demo.

ETA: If I believed that I could buy the software, and get the promised refund in 30 days, if it wasn't suitable, I'd do that instead. But the fact that they have ZERO contact information, and no demo? Nyah. What a shame--it looked really good, too.

Hitch

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Updated to add:

The link to get the demo no longer works. The site says it's copyrighted as of 2015, but there's no way to contact them or get the demo.

ETA: If I believed that I could buy the software, and get the promised refund in 30 days, if it wasn't suitable, I'd do that instead. But the fact that they have ZERO contact information, and no demo? Nyah. What a shame--it looked really good, too.

Hitch

I'll try to look around, since I spent a huge amount of time looking for this and then finally found it. Power Structure is the one you're curious about, right?

[Dr. Drib]

If you mean Power Structure, go here

http://www.powerstructure.com/

and then click on 'DEMO' at the bottom of the page.

They will want your email address, but this is the legitimate publisher.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

If you mean Power Structure, go here

http://www.powerstructure.com/

and then click on 'DEMO' at the bottom of the page.

They will want your email address, but this is the legitimate publisher.

Dr. Drib:

I did. Their Box account (where they have the demo) is messed up. I spent a lot of time trackign them down on the Net (they have NO contact information on the site whatsoever, mind you--I wonder what happens if someone wants their money back on the 30-day guarantee?), and emailed them directly. They responded, and sent me the installer separately.

However, taht being said, the way that they are running the website is not great. Neither creator is on Twitter; no contact info AT ALL, no way to reach them--I dug out their actual email address only because I'm a pretty persistent researcher.

I've dl'ed the demo, and if I love it, I'm buying it. It looks--initially--like exactly what I've been looking for. As long as it works, I don't really care if it's updated. (Although, I worry about Win8-->).

ETA: And, no matter what I do, I can't get the PDF manual to launch. There's a prompt telling you that you have to go get Adobe's PDF Reader to read it, which of course, I have. If you answer "no," as in, I don't want to go to Adobe's website, no manual. If you answer yes, your browser launches at Adobe, and STILL no manual. Honestly, all-in, so far, this feels beyond abandoned to downright "how can we MOST annoy folks?" I guess I'm supposed to guess at how to make this go. Not boding well for this one!

Hitch

[Dr. Drib]

The PDF manual not launching is a known defect. One can't, unfortunately.

Check out this site:

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/16531/power-structure

and pay particular attention to the Reviews and Comments section. What is said there about the Mac version fonts is true. The PC version, on the other hand, looks pretty good.

Here is an interesting review:

http://www.creativewritingsoftware10...g-software.php

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

The PDF manual not launching is a known defect. One can't, unfortunately.

Check out this site:

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/16531/power-structure

and pay particular attention to the Reviews and Comments section. What is said there about the Mac version fonts is true. The PC version, on the other hand, looks pretty good.

Here is an interesting review:

http://www.creativewritingsoftware10...g-software.php

Unfreakingbelievable. So...it's a figure-it-out-for-yourself app? Seriously, if they're going to abandon it, fine--then price it like abandonware. Utterly daft. And it's a shame--it looks near-perfect for me.

Hitch

[Dr. Drib]

I know! It's crazy that they would abandon it. There are a number of people who think it's indispensable.

Anyway, if you have time, read through the PDF file.

Also, there's one (or two?) sites that rate this software #1 in the writing category (CNET or something like that - I can't remember).

There's the Marshall Plan software (but I've never downloaded it or looked at it), but one of the posters from the site I quoted from above says that the program takes a cookie-cutter approach.

There is another one I'm looking at, but I'm not too impressed: This is from Mariner Software (whose software has an old-style look to it). Plus, they rarely do updates, it seems. Also, it's only for the Mac (I'm pretty sure). The name is Persona [Mariner Software], which only concerns itself with the related interactions of characters.

Really, I haven't seen ANYTHING like Power Structure.

I'll probably buy it.

If you find something similar, please let us all know.

[Dr. Drib]

Hitch (and others):

I just discovered this extremely LONG and very nice review of Dramatic Story Expert 5.

Scroll down on the page to that review, as there are other software reviews before that one.

This is the most detailed review I've located on Dramatic Story Expert 5.

Remember, this one is available only for the Mac, but it has a plethora of useful points in case you wish to explore the [older] PC version titled Dramatica Pro [current version 4].

[Dr. Drib]

I just found an excellent hands-on review of Contour [Mariner Software; PC/Mac].

Contour uses the Campbell/Vogler Mythic Story Structure to develop the four stages that a character goes through. (Power Structure also includes this template, along with other templates, in its database.)

He also mentions how it differs from Dramatica Pro [Drmatic Story Expert 5] and Power Structure.

Here's the link to this very good review [scroll down]:

http://www.howtowritefiction.info/20...1_archive.html

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

I know! It's crazy that they would abandon it. There are a number of people who think it's indispensable.

Anyway, if you have time, read through the PDF file.

Also, there's one (or two?) sites that rate this software #1 in the writing category (CNET or something like that - I can't remember).

There's the Marshall Plan software (but I've never downloaded it or looked at it), but one of the posters from the site I quoted from above says that the program takes a cookie-cutter approach.

There is another one I'm looking at, but I'm not too impressed: This is from Mariner Software (whose software has an old-style look to it). Plus, they rarely do updates, it seems. Also, it's only for the Mac (I'm pretty sure). The name is Persona [Mariner Software], which only concerns itself with the related interactions of characters.

Really, I haven't seen ANYTHING like Power Structure.

I'll probably buy it.

If you find something similar, please let us all know.

I did manage to finally dig up the PDF, from the installer package that they sent, once they (also) figured out that the downloader wasn't working. I wonder how many sales they lost because of that?

Someone really ought to buy the rights from them and develop the damned thing. The problem that I see is that ever since Scrivener hit the market--which was originally Mac-based-only--it's sucked all the oxygen out of the room for other apps, particularly those which really DO have all the tools that you need. As I said, Scrivener is, from my perspective, a Word-Document-Map clone with a file drawer for sub-dirs in it. Yes, the corkboarding is nice, but man, I don't get the damn FRENZY about it. (I wonder if people would be so enthusiastic if they actually understood HOW to use Word, since it would do the same thing, in the file/nav section?)

The other irksome thing--none of the exemplars came with. So, there's nothing to look at for their purported samples. Not the end of the world--after all, I know what a story arc is or this or that--but I could see how it would be a struggle for a total noob to writing. (Of course, most total noobs wouldn't be buying this type of software, either, if you think about it, because most don't know bupkus from structure.)

From what I've seen, the ONE thing I'm a bit etsy-ketsy about is it's not clear to me that I can do chapters AND scenes...granted, that's a hair-split, as you can do "scenes," if you choose the Screenplay options. But, the manual is 143 pages, so I'm going to work through it. It does have a LOT of what YW5 has. And it focuses, as I do, on structure and characters, so it might actually work for me.

I see your other posts about Contour and Dramatica Pro. I'll check them out (although, Contour sounds a bit like Snowflake Pro-meets-story-structure, and as I have SNP, I really don't want another character-development tool. SNPro really is excellent for that.) Nor am I overwhelmed by the idea of yet-another-hand-me-down program for PC that mightn't ever be developed (Dramatica), but hey, at this point, before I get further into my damn outline, I'll try anything. I like this current line I'm working on, and don't want to lose it. (n.b. : I suspect that Contour would, as it uses Campbell, be awesome for ANY Hero's Journey plotline. Sadly, that doesn't happen to be mine this go-round, natch!)

Thanks, DD!

Hitch